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Derek Pando is a BYU MBA Alum, and has done tours of duty in marketing roles at companies like Salesforce, LinkedIn, and most recently, Zoom. Along the way, Derek has always been thoughtful about making career decisions and has had a genuine curiosity in career development and growing a career. During our conversation, Derek spoke about his career journey, lessons he’s learned from each experience and how he has made transitions, and his advice to MBA and aspiring MBAs about how to build a successful career. Listen today on Apple Podcasts or Spotify
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Transcript
Intro:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the MBA insider podcast. I am your host Al Dea and the author of MBA insider. This podcast is for career driven professionals, looking for advice on how to grow their careers by leveraging the skills, experiences, and knowledge gained from an MBA degree. In each episode, I’ll give you a look into the business school experience, along with practical tips, career advice, and real life stories to help professionals grow their careers.
Al Dea:
Welcome to the MBA insider podcast. My name is Al Dea I’m the host of the MBA. Start a podcast and a founder of MBA school.com. Today I have the pleasure of having with me, Derek Pando. Derek is a BYU Marriott school of business MBA alum. In addition to that, Derek has spent a lot of time in his career working for emerging and fast growing tech startups. Most recently serving as the head of international marketing partner, marketing and localization at zoom, which we all know and love.
Al Dea:
So I’m really excited to talk to Derek today about his career journey about career in general, and also what he’s up to next. And for the listeners out there, just for context, I actually met Derek as they say online, when I was actually recruiting for MBA internships, I was doing a lot of cold emailing and I had reached out to Derek because at the time he was at LinkedIn and I just asked him for an informational interview and it’s very helpful to me in that process. And while I never ended up at LinkedIn, had the ability to kind of build a, an online relationship, so to speak with him. And he’s just been someone who I’ve enjoyed conversing with digitally over the years. And so I’m really glad to have him on the podcast today. So Derek, thank you so much for joining me. I’m really excited to dive in, but I always love to start with a warm up question on the podcast. So my question for you is because we’re focusing so much on careers. I would love to know when you were a kid when you were five or six or whatever, you know, what did you want to be when you quote unquote grew up?
Derek Pando:
All right, this is a great first one, but I’ll also say that the feeling’s mutual, I enjoyed meeting you and you were a student and it’s been fun to watch your progression and see how, you know, your passion for helping other MBA. Students has, uh, grown and continued, you know, many years after graduation. But, you know, I think my, my first memory of wanting to be something was a Marine biologists, which I’ve found out is actually like, not an uncommon thing for a child. Like my wife, when I met her, she also wanted to be a Marine biologist, uh, which he was a kid, but that, but that kind of evolved when I was in like middle school and high school had a lawn mowing business that did really well. And I got a lot of, you know, satisfaction, growth out of that. And so that, around that time I was more like, I’m just going to be a businessman, you know, like I didn’t really know what that meant, but like I had my little business, I was really proud of it. And so that’s what I wanted to be.
Al Dea:
That’s great. Uh, I feel similar in some respects of just this idea of a businessman, what prompted the lawn mowing business, but did you just have a lawnmower or did you make a lot of lawns for your, your mow, the lawn for your, for your family? Or how did that, how did that get started?
Derek Pando:
It was my dad. Like we moved, I grew up in Texas. We moved from Houston, Austin when I was like 14, we moved to Austin. We’ve been to a new neighborhood and my dad, my dad’s like, Hey, you should mow the neighbor’s lawns. I mean, most of these people don’t have someone to mow yet. And, you know, he kind of just gave me this gentle nudge and some encouragement and, you know, kind of took off from there. And, you know, I, as I’m a parent now, I’m like, you know, that was a pretty good model. You know, he kind of set me up, kind of gave me a little nudge, but, but enough to get me going. And then from there I was motivated, enjoyed making money in the interaction with customers and stuff. So,
Al Dea:
Yeah, so I slightly different getting in my first job story, but I think similar vein. Um, so I, I wanted to get a job. And so when I was 12, I started working at a golf course and I, and I think at first my parents were a little hesitant to let me do that just because I was still pretty young, but once they saw how excited I was about it and how much I enjoyed it because I couldn’t drive, they were willing to kind of support me. And so, uh, they will, you know, golf starts pretty early on the weekends for those of the folks who play out there. And so they often would wake up at, you know, 5:00 AM and five 30 and take me to the golf course so I could go and work and then pick me up. And so, um, while initially they were a little hesitant, they were incredibly supportive and enabling me to, to take that on and certainly something that I’m grateful for him one day, hopefully when I have a family, I’m just like, you will be able to kind of pay it forward in that respect.
Al Dea:
So I love that. Okay. So let’s, let’s just jump in and maybe just to start, what were you doing before, uh, going to get your MBA at BYU and why did initially, did you choose to pursue an MBA at that point in time in your career?
Derek Pando:
Yeah, I, I think, you know, no one in my family really has an MBA. Like my parents didn’t, I, I found out about it when I was an undergrad. I had a friend who was kinda like, oh, you got to get MBAs. You can get like, make ton of money. You know, he was, he was a little bit more like future-oriented than me. And so that’s when it kinda got on my radar. I think also when I was in college, I began to like internalize and have the goal of like, you know, getting as much education as you can. That, that seemed like a good idea. You know, uh, even though I was just still in my undergrad, I thought, Hey, advanced education I think is going to have some, uh, benefits. And I, you know, I graduated in 2009, which it was a terrible year to graduate from college and, you know, I’ll make a long story.
Derek Pando:
I graduated with no job, but I was able to do another internship. And that internship led me to an entry-level marketing role at Salesforce in San Francisco. And I was doing my undergrad at BYU and Utah at the time. So I literally packed up everything in my truck. I’d never even been to San Francisco before drove, drove to start a new job. And I remember my boss at the time being like, so do you know anyone here? I was like, no, he’s like, do you have family here? I’m like, no. And he’s like, are you sure you want to do this? I’m like, I’m adaptable. That’s what I told him. I was like, I am adaptable. But that seed was planted with my friend. And also when I was an undergrad, I participated in this like MBA prep course where they kind of explained the process. They use it as like a way to drive people back into boys’ MBA program and that kind of planted the seed. So like, it was already kind of in my like, okay, I gotta take the GMAT. Okay. I got to get work experience, but you know, of course, moving to San Francisco just like completely transformed my career and my view of the world and everything. And in such a positive way that after three years I’d had an amazing experience, but I felt like, Hey, it’s time to go back. Yeah, for sure.
Al Dea:
So just to follow up on that, I, you know, having made a whole bunch of other career decisions since then, and also someone who I know is very thoughtful about making career decisions, I’m sure later on in your life, you’ve put a lot of thought intentionality about making these decisions. I’m curious what your thought process was like in terms of taking that opportunity to pack up your things, move to San Francisco, take on a job, your first full-time job, you know, on one hand I could see, you know, kind of, you know, being young and not knowing, and that ignorance true in terms of not knowing, being really valuable in some respects, right. Because you don’t know what you don’t know, but at the same time, I just, I think back to that you just play replaying that conversation you had with your manager being like, oh man, like that’s, those are, uh, those are big. Those are big risks. I mean, clearly paid off, but I’m just curious. Do you remember what your thought process was like when you were making that decision?
Derek Pando:
I do. I mean, listen, I was in survival mode, right. Because I didn’t have a job and I gotta get a job. And so that, that Salesforce offer, I was, I was interning at a tech company in Utah, a good company. I later got acquired by Adobe and I wanted it. I was like, I was there. I was enjoying it. I was like, I want to stay here. That’s fine. Utah’s fine. I grew up in Texas. So it’s like, I didn’t like necessarily like, Utah’s the end all be all for me, but like I was there, but I wasn’t there had a hiring freeze. I wasn’t getting attraction. Then I got this offer from Salesforce. But by that time, I think I was getting excited for the idea of an adventure. You know, I’d spent four years in college there. I mean, I grew up in Texas, like I’d lived a few years in Southern California, so it’s like, and I did an internship in Denver, so I I’d moved around a little bit and, you know, considered myself pretty flexible.
Derek Pando:
And it was funny because as soon as I got that offer, I came back and I told my internship, I got that offer. And they started rolling out the red carpet and started preparing an offer for me to stay in Utah. But, but by that time I was like, forget it. Like I am, you know, I was like, I was looking at San Francisco and getting to understand it better. And the opportunities, I was like, no, it’s adventure time. And that’s kinda what started driving. Ultimately the decision at first it was survival. Like this is the only job offer I have, but then it was like, no, this is an adventure. And at this stage, you know, I was single. Like, I was like, let’s do it. You know what I was like, what’s, what’s the worst that could happen. I’d like to go back and like, you know, move in with my parents or something if I had to. So
Al Dea:
Sure. For sure. So now you you’re at BYU and, you know, in the MBA program there, I’m sure. Curious to know from your perspective, you know, what was maybe a transformative experience you had in your time, you know, in the MBA program at BYU? Yeah.
Derek Pando:
I mean, I, I think a couple things, so one is BYU has an experiential learning program called career capital where they have a VC fund that you actually invest in real deals along with other VC syndicates. And that was an area is always interested in, and, you know, in like Silicon valley, so idolize, like now, if he sees like, that’s, you know, that’s like the coolest job on earth, you know, and it was, you, you have to apply for it your second year. And there’s only like 15 students that get to do it. So I got into that and, you know, to be able to get into that world and to like investigate companies and to invest your money and create like, and have a tight knit group experience was really, really incredible. So I think that was transformative. The other thing that I did was viewing you has this thing where you can basically design your own class.
Derek Pando:
You just, you create a project and you get a professor sign off of it. So I, I said, you know what, I’m going to start a blog. And I went to one of the marketing professors and was like, I want to start a blog. This is what, this is my goal. I’m going to like, you know, write 10 posts and set it up and optimize it for SEO and all that. And I did it and my blog, I still read it today. Not, not quite as consistently before, but I have kept it up and it’s, and it, and I think it’s helped me be a better marketer because I learned to write also, I learned how to like, have an opinion and have an online presence and create content which had lost applications for my job. So I think those are the two things that I always think about when I think about my
Al Dea:
That’s great. And as someone who’s written a lot over the years, I a hundred percent agree with you about writing a blog in terms of a great place to not only reflect, but also as also a fellow marketer, definitely something to really hone my chops in my writing. Just kind of going back there for a second. Was there any particular reason that you wanted to take on that as a side project? Was Debbie you just always been interested in writing or was it just, you just thought it was a great opportunity to kind of structure an independent project where you could be creative?
Derek Pando:
Well, I think there was a lot of things. I had a, I had a boss early in my time at Salesforce who he was about like Derek, he’s like, you’ve got to build like a professional brand and like, that’s, what’s going to make you really desirable. That’s going to give you options. Like people need to know who you are and what you do and that you do it well. So he was always very encouraging. Like you got to do that. And then I think I had a natural interest. I think I naturally like to share the things I’m interested about. Like I’m naturally kind of an evangelist that kind of fits with like my marketing career. And then when I found out that like, bill, you had this custom custom project, I was like, well, I was going to do this anyways in my free time. Might as well get some credit for it. Sure. Absolutely. Some class credit. So that’s, that’s how I was thinking about it
Al Dea:
For sure. Well, it’s it, couple things. Number one. And ironically enough, you ended up going to LinkedIn. So talk about personal branding certainly certainly helps in a lot of ways, and it is a nice extension to that, but I also am just a fan in general and encouraging people to think about those independent and creative projects that maybe don’t fall within the traditional scope of what you might do in an MBA program. Uh, because you know, if you are given the chance to do that, I, I do think some really interesting and creative ideas can come from it and even from my own experience. So my independent study was that I wanted to do a project to really examine and evaluate the core values of UNC. Kenan-Flagler what we set our core values were and what those actually meant for students. And so I went out and did a study.
Al Dea:
I did interviews and we ended up turning it into a video. We produced a video around it, which they still to my knowledge still show it orientation to this day, which was really great, you know, certainly in terms of the impact it made. But you know, in terms of talking before about professionally, you know, as a marketer, like everything I was doing back then, and back then, I didn’t know I wanted to be a marketer, but everything I was doing back then in terms of understanding people coming up with narratives, like putting together a video, incorporating storytelling, I mean, that’s what I do and live and breathe like all day now. And so sometimes those creative projects unearth things that you don’t always see on the surface.
Derek Pando:
So yes, no, I think that’s awesome. It’s funny. You mentioned that because another thing I did was they had free video editing classes where they teach how to use premiere through the it department. It wasn’t targeted for grad students, but I did that. I do that as well as like, cause it was of interest. So yeah, I am a hundred percent. Like you got to just get your hands dirty when you’re in business school. Right. Like find something that’s going to give you a new experience. And I think like you and I, you you’ll likely find lots of ways to apply it in your career.
Al Dea:
Sure. So it sounds like you had a pretty good experience at BYU in the MBA program. I’m curious, now you have the benefit maybe of hindsight and looking back a couple of years, what’s something maybe that you know now, but you wish you knew when you were an MBA student or when you were in business school. I think
Derek Pando:
It actually kind of extends with the thread that we were just talking about of, I think so much of your MBA experience should really be, can be driven outside of the classroom by what you want to do. Right? Like, and when I think about the most valuable experiences, like even I went to, you know, where, uh, you know, I think we were talking with later, but I lived in the bay area for 10 years. Last year we moved to Raleigh or a suburb of Raleigh, North Carolina. The reason I even thought of Raleigh was because when I was in business school, I did a case competition. We went, the competition was at UNC and I, my wife came out with me and we were like, whoa, this place is awesome. Like, let’s live, let’s move here when we have kids one day, you know? So, so like if you, if you just focus on the classes and your grades and like recruiting, I think you can really miss out on so much. Uh, and even if it’s something that’s has nothing. I mean, even if it’s like, I’m gonna learn to play tennis while I’m in business school, because you have a flexible schedule or I’m gonna invest in this other part of my life. Like I think like holistically that’s, what’s meant to really happen, but it’s not just about the classes and the grades, but it’s about having a transformative, like life experience that sets you on the path that you want to be on. Right.
Al Dea:
And I think sometimes I cause a hundred percent agree with you and shout out to, I think what you were talking about is the VCC or the venture capital competition, uh, which is a wonderful experience hosted by my Alma mater. But, uh, no, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think, you know, again, we can play Monday morning quarterback now, cause we’ve been out for a few years, but I think sometimes in the moment it’s sometimes it’s hard to want to invest in some things because you don’t know, you didn’t know back then that like this was going to pay off, you know, seven years later. Right. And I think it really, I’ve had to learn to train myself the mindset of if it, if it feels right. And it’s interesting, you know, sometimes what you’re doing, won’t have the proverbial outcome come right away. Yeah. It, it may come back down the road and it’s okay to be okay with that.
Derek Pando:
Or even it will clarify that a certain pattern is not the path we need to be on. And I experienced this when the summer I interned at LinkedIn viewer who gets out like a month and a half earlier than most schools. So I actually did an internship at a, at a VC fund in salt lake and I had a great experience, but I was very, it was very clear to me at the end of that, then I did not want to pursue VC right now. I figured it’d be a lot more fun later in life when I’m a rich, rich guy. Not sure, not like do the associate grind, but it was so glorified that I think until so glorified by the industry that until like I went and was in it, I realized, I realized, Nope, this isn’t the right path for me. This is a great path for a lot of people, but not for me. So a hundred percent.
Al Dea:
So I’m glad you didn’t go that path because somehow you’ve managed to find a way to work at some pretty innovative and forward-thinking, you know, tech companies that have really taken off. I mean, you were at Salesforce in the, before business school and kind of the earlier days, it was still I’d been around for a while. But you know, roughly speaking the earlier days, much smaller than what it is now, you were at LinkedIn at a period of, of incredible growth. And then certainly, you know, being at zoom, you certainly, we’ve all kind of seen just that rise over the past few years would love to know what about these companies or what about the opportunities really drew you to these experiences? I mean, it’s a pretty, you know, I actually, maybe you should have been in VC because if you had invested versus working, I mean, it’s not the same because you have to find a way, but, but, but no, I mean, it’s pretty good, pretty good place to make bets on. Right.
Derek Pando:
Uh, a couple of things like, you know, I told you about Salesforce that was largely driven by, it was my first job offer. Now I was working in tech and does some interest in tech. So I understood that like how essential Salesforce was is like a business software and everything. So I’d had enough exposure to think this is an innovative company. This seems like a cool place to work, you know? So that kind of drove that and, and that, that kind of then being the market leader, even at the time, uh, you know, they’ve added more markets and they’re still market leader. And most of them that really drove me to Salesforce, especially when everyone, all of a sudden started getting FOMO from the companies. They didn’t want to hire me before. Once I got my offer from Salesforce, then LinkedIn, you know, when I went back to business school after like my, not that too far in my first year, it was clear that marketing was still where I wanted to be.
Derek Pando:
I explored other options and, and, you know, kind of, you know, wanting to make sure that still felt right. And so I thought, you know what? I really want to focus on a product that I am excited to market for, that I care about. So I literally made a list. I was like, I love my north face jacket. I love my GoPro camera. I love LinkedIn. I love Amazon prime. Like I made a list of just companies that like, I will naturally grab a neighbor and be like, you know, if you signed up for this, like, have you done that? Like, have you experienced this? And LinkedIn was, I had been passionate about them as a product, as a company, basically, ever since I discovered them. And it was funny as soon as I got the job offer, all these people that I knew reached out to me were like, Derek, I remember you bugging me, telling me I had to create a LinkedIn profile back in like 2010 or, you know, whenever, you know, far before I ever worked for them.
Derek Pando:
And then when I started working for them, the joke was, I tell people I’ve been working for you for like seven years. You’re just starting to pay me now. So that drove that decision. Also, I looked at it from a stage perspective of company. I wanted to join LinkedIn because they were post IPO large enough that I felt like I would get actually some good training. LinkedIn was also known for being like a well-managed company. And I don’t, I wasn’t like mentally ready to be like, I’m going to early stage, like whatever. I was like, no, I want to be somewhere where like I can learn. So someone’s going to have time to teach me stuff. And, and that drove the LinkedIn decision. But then what was interesting that what drove me away from LinkedIn and then to zoom was basically stagnation like at LinkedIn, which I still love LinkedIn.
Derek Pando:
And it was, you know, hard to leave. I felt like I, I had hit a point where I wasn’t growing as much anymore. And even I had this moment where my boss left to take a different role. And I went to my bosses boss and I made the case. I said, I want to take over her job. And here’s why, and I knew I could do it. I knew I had the skills, like I was like, and I thought this is going to be a really good step for me. And he like, you know, kind of, he thought about it for a couple of weeks. And finally had a meeting where I confronted him. I was like, this is going to happen or not. And he said, no, Derek, like, I’m not going to give you this opportunity. And like, in that moment, I was like, I’m out.
Derek Pando:
Like I gotta go. You know, like, I, I didn’t feel like the growth opportunities were there. And then also I felt like my time in Silicon valley was winding down. My wife was pregnant with our second child by then. And we were like, you know, we might not be in the valley that much longer. So I felt a need. I was like, I need to hit the gas. And you know, I’m a big fan of, uh, you know, the Wealthfront fastest growing companies list that I’m sure a lot of MBAs are into. And the guy who creates, I can’t remember his name, Andy Rach, Andy, uh, yeah, I’ve, I’ve read his stuff. They have great content. And, you know, he makes the hypothesis or the, the, the argument that for career growth and for financial opportunity go to a high growth software company. So I was like, you know what, from here in the valley, I’m going to do it.
Derek Pando:
I’m going to put my pedal to the metal. And one of the first things I did was reach out to a friend who was a VC. And he said, he’s like, we just invested in zoom. And I was like video conferencing, like, why donors does the world need another video conferencing service? I really that’s what I thought at the time, but he’s like Derek take a look. And I own a lot for that because, but, but I took a look and then once I started peeling back the onion, I saw some things. I saw a huge market. I saw incredibly humble and customer-focused CEO. And I saw a company that was, you know, doubling in size every year. And I thought, this seems like a bet. I want to take now. I wish I could honestly say I knew what was going to happen. I knew that IPO is gonna be incredible and the pandemic was going to drive us to become a hundred billion dollar company. But I knew what I knew at the time. And I made like an intelligent bet. And that’s what led me.
Al Dea:
Yeah. I do want to talk about zoom, but I want to go back to LinkedIn for a second because I think it’s worth spending some time chatting about, I would love to know if you remember what it was kind of like in that period of time when your manager left, and then you pitch your skip-level manager on this idea of taking on this role that you felt qualified for, that you felt competent and confident in terms of being able to do. And then them kind of being politely back to work, we’re going to go in a different direction. And then eventually you don’t make, you know, realizing it was time to leave. And I want to ask, uh, on ask just because I sometimes, you know, like I’ve certainly had my fair share of setbacks and I don’t feel like we spend enough time talking about these things. So if you don’t mind, I would love to maybe hear just from your perspective, you know, what was that period of time, like leading up to eventually kind of finding your new opportunity to him? Like, how did that sit with you? How did you respond to that? Was it hard? Was it just like, okay, like I’m ready to roll. I’ve got to find the next thing. Or how did, how did you kind of navigate that?
Derek Pando:
Yeah. Okay. Well, I’ll give you a, I’ll give you another example where I was in a summer situation. It was actually at Salesforce. I want to transition to product marketing. I’d applied for an internal product marketing job. I got shut down for it. And I was crushed. Like I was emotionally like crushed and I called one of my mentors up and I was like, I need to quit Salesforce. And he was like, dude, like, you need to just chill, like just chill, see what, you know, give it a couple more months. See what happens in any way as long story short Salesforce, I, another internal role came up. I got that one moved into product marketing and everything was fine and dandy. So that was a situation where I was crushed and I ended up deciding to stay put, and I felt good about that.
Derek Pando:
The LinkedIn, the LinkedIn one was interesting because I kind of saw the writing on the wall a little bit of like, you know, he, he didn’t seem super enthusiastic. So I think I’d been mentally preparing. So when he told me that he couldn’t that he wasn’t gonna give me the job, I actually was a little relieved because it was clarity on what my next step was. I think comparing that to my Salesforce time between that, what happened at Salesforce? I’d done my MBA. I’d worked for three years at LinkedIn. I’d been promoted once or twice. I can’t remember, but I was, I was progressing nicely. So I had, I had more confidence in myself as like a professional. And so when, when he said, no, I said, you know what, I’m gonna take my view on this 10 year view on this and I’m going to leave, you know, but sometimes, I mean, I’m sure there are situations like where, Hey, maybe like you weren’t ready for a role, you know, but also maybe didn’t feel like there was another great path for me. I did interview for other internal roles and there was always interesting stuff. I love LinkedIn’s products, but you know, that combined with the other motivations of, I want, you know, I’d always had a goal to be at a company with IPO, you know, and I always had a goal to go to a growth, a growth company like that. I was like, it felt, it felt like the right time.
Al Dea:
Yeah, for sure. That makes, that makes a ton of sense. Okay. So let’s, let’s talk about zoom or your time at zoom, I should say. And so we’re filming this in the summer of 2021 and clearly this, this past year certainly been a big year for the company. Uh, but in addition, it’s also been a big year for you. Uh, for those who don’t know, you’ve moved across the country with your family, you know, you’re working from Raleigh, what’s the year been like, you know, how has it been, you know, managing all the things that you’re doing. And also just, you know, big life changes as well.
Derek Pando:
I’ve been working on a 5,000 word blog posts that I’ve yet to publish. Uh, but I’ll give it, I’ll say, I’ll give you the short version. You know, I would describe it as the best moments of my career have been in the last, you know, 14 months and the absolute worst moments of my career. Right. So, you know, I joined zoom when it was 500 people I could stroll into Eric Yuan’s office and ask him a question about whatever, you know, like when I joined you did your expense reports, they would print out a check and put it on your desk. You know, like that’s like, that’s how early it was. So, you know, and zoom and I work on the international front. So I was at the, kind of the tip of the spear for what was, what was happening with the pandemic. Cause we started seeing it in Asia and in Australia before.
Derek Pando:
And I was pretty involved. I initially led the task force that was addressing this until it became, uh, a company-wide issue. But, you know, I think I learned a couple things and there’s a couple of things that stood out like one is I, I think in those intense times, you come back to the company’s culture. And I think that’s what held things together at zoom, because we went from, you know, 10 million daily active participants, daily meeting participants in December of 20, 19 to 300 million in April of 2020, which means that was like a 30 X growth in our company in like four months, right. Or, or our usage of our product. And it broke everything. It broke every process, it broke, you know, like it was, it was emergency mode. And at first it was great. Cause like, you know, we were selling like crazy and we were the darling and Jimmy Fallon was talking about zoom, but then the pendulum swung the other way as it always does.
Derek Pando:
And, and Christy Teagan knows this and Ellen knows this, that, you know, all of a sudden, every security researcher, lawyer, uh, was digging into our products. And we started getting a lot of negativity that combined with the zoom bombing, uh, that was happening as people who had never used video conferencing software before were posting links publicly and then getting random people, joining their meetings, not understanding how to kind of set it up because most of our customers up until that point were businesses, governments with it departments. And they knew that the people inherently knew how to use video conferencing safely. So that created a lot of dark moments. I mean, and, and frankly like, you know, around that time, I think we like 2,500, 3000 people, but we were getting the attention of a Facebook or an apple or Google, which had, you know, 50, 60, a hundred thousand employees.
Derek Pando:
And so, um, I’m really proud of how we operate as a company. I’m really proud of how my team operated. I, you know, Eric, our CEO, he said during some of the really tough moments, he said, we’re going to operate in such a way that when we look back on this 20 years from now, we’re going to be proud of the role we play in the pandemic. And that was really our north star. And that’s what I try to have as north star for me personally. But honestly there were times I’d come out of my office, like an emotional wreck because you know, when you work in a big company and someone criticizes, it you’re like whatever, but like we were small enough then like it felt personal. I’m like this person hates me, you know? And like in the company, you know, it felt it was so intensive to like the company could just disappear overnight, which obviously in hindsight was never a realistic thought, but it was, it was very intense.
Al Dea:
Thank you for sharing that. You know, so for me, I work at a pretty big company. Right. But I care about the work that I do. And so if we ever put something out there, whether it’s from internal stakeholders or external stakeholders that doesn’t make the mark, you know, I, you know, definitely feel bad, right. Or, you know, you feel like you may be less or I feel like I maybe let someone down and, you know, depending on how small or big it is, you know, you, you kind of respond and, you know, kind of the correlated type of way, you know, you do strike me as someone who cares about your work and cares about the company that you represent. And so I would love to know how do you hold space for, you know, being invested in your work and caring about the quality of it or the craft of it, or caring about your company with the reality of sometimes like these things happen and while that’s important to pay attention to you also can’t let it consume you too much because there’s work to be done.
Derek Pando:
I mean, yeah, absolutely. I think that, I think there’s a few ways, like one is I’ve been reading, uh, Angela Duckworth’s book on grit, which I know I’m late to the party, but super, super incredible, but she talks about just like putting one foot forward, you know, and just not giving up. And so I think that that was important thing that I kind of learned. I mean, we, you know, at some things felt helpless. Like for example, we had five PR agencies internationally before the pandemic and in our key markets. And then all of a sudden we were front page news in most countries across the world, but we didn’t have PR people, we didn’t speak the language. We couldn’t defend ourselves. We didn’t have, we couldn’t give them our statements to try to clarify when there was misunderstandings. So a situation like that just felt like, like, what do I do?
Derek Pando:
Like a tsunami just hit me. I’m just going to drown. I’m just gonna stay here. And like, I got no chance of fixing this, but we learned, okay, hire an agency agency that has international presence. Boom. Like in step-by-step we started making a dent, we hired on an additional 14 agencies across the globe and, you know, got spokespeople trained up. So that, that, you know, just putting one foot in front of the other, the last thing is you got to remember that at any given point, you have to look at your job and think if this disappeared overnight, is my life good? Am I like, do I have a future potential? Have I taken care of the other things in my life, whether that be your family or your friends or your hobbies, or that your causes that you care about whatever it is. And there was several times with my employees that I looked at them and I said, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but you know what, you know, people love you. Your future’s bright. You’re not going to be defined by what happens at zoom right now. And sometimes I felt like I was actually just trying to tell myself that because I was so emotionally tangled up cause I’d been at the gym so long, but I think, listen, whether it’s your company’s under criticism or you get fired or whatever, you’re always at risk of losing your job. And in, especially in high, high powered places like Silicon valley, people intertwine their self-esteem and their worst way too much in it. And I, I think
Al Dea:
Totally, I’m glad you said that. Cause I was literally just going to bring that up. And I think for me, it’s probably a little bit of a spectrum. I think there are times when I’m much better about being able to not equate my own self-worth with the achievements or the outcomes that I produce and to make sure that there’s a clear delineation from that. But there are definitely times when it’s, it’s hard for me to do that because part of why I got to where I am and I’m part of why you’ve been successful has because Ben, because of your accomplishments and your achievements and what you’ve been able to produce. And, and so it has been really, really difficult sometimes for me, I know personally to be able to separate those because you’re right. I mean, you know, I guess the, the question sometimes I ask myself, it’s like, okay, well what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen. And then you enter that and then you say, okay, well, number one, how likely is that to happen? Right. So there’s exactly like how likely is it that we’re all gonna lose our jobs tomorrow? Probably like low, but even if it were to happen. Yeah. We’re still good people. We’re still highly employable. We can still put food on the table. We can move forward. But uh, in any given moment, I think it’s hard to hold space for that. Right? Like,
Derek Pando:
Yeah. Well, and, and I think having an MBA contributes to that, right? Because you say you make yourself marketable and it helps your marketability, it puts you in a situation we’re going to have a high income. One of the first things I did out of school was I had an emergency fund of like six to 12 months of living expenses, you know? And in the bay, that’s not, that’s not a good amount of money, right. It’s like two or three years, somewhere else, you know, but in the tray. But, but honestly like that sort of thing has personally helped me a lot where I was like, I can walk away at any time and no one’s going to starve, you know, and I got plenty of time to find a job. So I think that also made a big difference for me.
Al Dea:
Absolutely. One of the things that I, reasons why I wanted to bring you on and to chat with you is because I know that, uh, just as much as, um, I do, or you also spend a lot of time thinking, talking, writing, sharing, reading on topics related to just careers and career development. I mean, we already started getting into it a little bit, but I guess maybe just a start, you know, what really prompted this interest in this desire? I know you’re a busy guy, but you know, these are these are that? Why did, how did this bubble up for you in your life?
Derek Pando:
I think most people, when I looked at like a room of colleagues and like, you know, what, what they have to offer, I think like intelligence wise, I’m probably rarely like the, the top of the top of the food chain. I feel like I’m reasonably smart, but I am not, I’m almost never the smartest guy in the room I’m saying pure mental power, but I found that one thing I, I think I do have is I, I say I’m relatively savvy, right? And so, you know, I, I look for other options. I connect the dots, I do my homework, I investigate. And so I think early on in my career, as even like, as a student, I realized that I was finding these nuggets. I was finding these connections. I was finding these paths that other people around me were not seeing or, or had no idea how to tackle.
Derek Pando:
And I think that was when I first felt like, okay, I’m seeing something that I can share with the world that can contribute, whether that’s, how to optimize your LinkedIn profile or whether that’s, you know, how to have a career conversation. When I learned something and I found a nugget, I just had an inherent need to want to share it. And as a marketer, you know, I just kind of naturally gravitate towards the ways you do that you did on social media. You do that with a blog, you do that by, you know, podcasts or whatever. And so I think part of it is, you know, just natural interest. But part of it is I think some like skills that I have to be able to connect the dots and articulate things I’d like to hope, you know, clearly that, that benefit other people. And, you know, I have these experiences where when I have an epiphany or haven’t experienced it just clinks around in my head and I can’t like, it’s like, it bothers me until I put, I put it out into the world and I see you’re not in your head cause you, you probably have like a similar kind of experience.
Derek Pando:
And so that’s, what’s really driven me. I’d like to think that it’s to help people, but also, you know, I’m, I’m a hundred percent aware of that professionally. This helps as well when you’re visible, when people know who you are, that creates opportunities. So those are some of the things that have motivated that.
Al Dea:
Absolutely. And, you know, even as a marketer, one of the things we often talk about on my team is that when it comes to something like messaging or a narrative or content that cannot be developed in a vacuum, right? Like that has to be something that is iterated on kind of looked at evaluated and usually done in a, in a group, right. Like I can’t just live in someone’s head and getting it out into the world is super, super valuable. Even if it does get torn up because that’s how you crystallize it. Very rarely does it, do you get it right on the, on the first shot, but I also kind of agree with that, but then, you know, to the point you made, and also I think this helps having, you know, worked at LinkedIn. I, it also allows you to, to get other perspectives and to refine, um, or even to find other people who either think something similar and can contribute to it or play off of it or thinks something different that stretches your mind or helps you kind of think in new ways.
Al Dea:
And so I think that’s, I think that’s really great. I would love to know, you know, as you think about careers or your own kind of career development, how has your own thought process or mindset shifted on this since you’ve graduated from business school? And part of the reason why I ask is because I know you’ve thought about this a lot, but also that’d be curious to know what has changed and what hasn’t particularly, because, you know, I think you’ve had a pretty good series of transformative experiences since then. I would just, I’m wondering how those have maybe changed or, or maybe not changed your own thoughts on, on careers and career development
Derek Pando:
Definitely changed. I think one of the, the, the thing that came to mind when you asked me this is that I become more and more convinced that it’s okay to not always be in the fast lane, right? Like you get out MBA, you’re feeling ambitious. You get these jobs that puts you in this track. That’s like growth and an opportunity. And like, it’s always, you know, the next promotion next, this, and, and I think sometimes you can, you can focus more on being on the track and growing then actually, where it’s taking you. And sometimes you can stop and look and think like, do I, actually, this is this actually where I want to go. I I’ve experienced that a little bit at zoom in that we grew so fast. And during my time at zoom, I was the, I was the raise your hand guy.
Derek Pando:
I was like, give me that, give me more like I, because I came here to like grow and have every experience, but then zoom grew to the place, the stage of a company where all of a sudden I realized, whoa, like I one, we moved so fast. It was like 10 years and like four. And all of a sudden I realized that I was on a path that I didn’t, that wasn’t going to get me to where I had originally wanted to go. Like I jumped too many steps too fast, which is like a great problem to have, but I really, but all of a sudden I realized that I wasn’t as happy and that like, I wasn’t as motivated. And, and, and I’ve seen this with other colleagues that have worked at such an intensely fast growing company that sometimes you just need to look around and have a reevaluation of like, do I need to keep at this speed?
Derek Pando:
And am I still getting where I need to go? And the intensity of working at a place like zoom for four years, I don’t think there’s any shame in saying, you know what, I’m going to do something different. I’m going to shift. I’m going to maybe take a little bit easier role for a bit. I’m going to do a lateral move instead of, you know, trying to fly up the ladder. And I I’d say I was less simple as an MBA. I was like, ah, I’m super ambitious. I want to like conquer the world. And I think over time I’ve been, I that’s kind of changed my view.
Al Dea:
I a hundred percent agree. Was there anything in particular that drove you to come to this conclusion or what influenced you to maybe coming to this collision? Cause I, I feel the same way, but I would, I, and I can talk about how I came to this, but I would love to know from you, uh, what, what really drove.
Derek Pando:
I think it really came from, I was having a period of time where I wasn’t happy at work and I was trying to troubleshoot, why am I not happy? Like I’ve had more responsibility, I’m hitting every goal and making more money than I’ve ever made before. And I was like, why am I not happy at work? And it, you know, I had to do like a lot of self reflecting. Um, but then eventually I came back to like, what are my long-term goals? Where am I on that path? You know, like I’ll, I mean, I’ll give the zoom, the zoom example is interesting. Cause it’s like, I want to be a CMO. Well, do I still want to be the CMO of a publicly traded, you know, 10,000 person company? Like, no. And that was that’s who my boss was. So it’s like, where would I go from here at zoom? That’s where I would go. And I’d looked around and thought, you know, I don’t think that’s what I want to do. And not that I don’t want to be a CMO. I’d probably be like an earlier stage company, you know, things like that. But, but then I I’m like, well, yeah, that’s the path I’m grinding on right now. So it’s like, that’s why I’m not happy.
Al Dea:
Yeah, totally. No, I think that sometimes we often think whether that’s MBA students in alarm or just other driven people that careers are kind of like that MBA graph, that hockey stick of like up into the right and just progressing and increasing, increasing, increasing. And that is not always true or doesn’t always need to be true for everyone. And I also think that from, I was just having this conversation with someone else the other day, some of the kind of traditional career platitudes that I think worked really well in previous decades, um, are evolving a little bit, you know, there was a period of time where it didn’t really make a lot of sense to continue progressing at the same organization and kind of, you know, getting the, the, the watch at 10 years, the clock at 25 years and the pension and retirement and, uh, today’s day and age just, that’s just not as much of a reality for a lot of people.
Al Dea:
And so I think some of those things were some of the shifts that really helped me see, um, there might be another way, you know, in addition to that’s just the general happiness, but, um, I actually go back to something that I think someone, um, you and I both know because we both worked with, uh, said to me, uh, my, my, my manager at Salesforce when I was an intern, um, Peter, he said to me, you know, there’s, there’s winning and their success, you know, winning is very binary, right? It’s, it’s the outcome, but success is, it’s a little bit more nebulous, but it can be to be defined, but that that’s really on you to, to define like what it is. And one of the interesting things, you know, thinking about and just even looking at his career, he didn’t do what every other product marketer did.
Al Dea:
He did the thing that he wanted to do. And so seeing that, like, kind of thinking about, and reflecting on that lesson, I think for him, he really did live up to this idea of I’m going to define what success is in my own terms. And it’s not just going to be about winning, right? Like it’s going to be about the things that I think, you know, either make me happier that make me most fulfilled or, or make me able to live the life that is most important to me. Uh, which oftentimes isn’t always what, you know, the next layer on the org chart is, or more money or whatever it is that that is out there. So,
Derek Pando:
Absolutely. Yeah. A smart guy.
Al Dea:
He really, he really is. He really is. So you’ve alluded to it a little bit, but you know, it’s been a, it’s been a year, but, uh, you recently, or you’re in the process, it should say if making another career decision and that’s actually to go back to school. And so talk to me a little bit about that. Uh, what prompted this and, and why now, and, and, and what do you, uh, what are you hoping?
Derek Pando:
Yeah, so, you know, when I was an MBA student, again, going, going back to like having experiences, I attended a conference, uh, at Harvard business school. And while I was there, I met some people that had done joint MBAs and MPS, you know, a master’s of business administration along with a master’s of public administration. And I did my undergrad in political science I’ve for a long time, I’ve had interest in that area. And I thought, Ooh, that would have been fun. Like, I didn’t know when I applied to business school, that that was even an option, but I thought, oh, that’s interesting. So I investigated a little bit, I found out that Harvard has this one year mid-career masters, masters of public administration program, which is very similar to the one that I had that the people I’d met had done. But you do it later in your career.
Derek Pando:
Once you’ve had at least like 10 years of work experience, and it’s kind of geared towards people with other advanced degrees. It’s very, you know, international, it’s a one year full-time program. And so when I was in my, in my MBA program, I made the goal. I said, Hey, I’m gonna apply to that. That sounds like really fun, you know? Like, and so I’ve had that goal and like right before, right when I started at zoom, I took the GRE in preparation for it. Cause it scores good for five years and we were about to have another kid. And I was like, I need to get this test out of the way. I’ve always had it in the back of my mind. But what was interesting about it is I didn’t really like, know how it all come together. I mean, I’d been tech, marketing focus.
Derek Pando:
Like I hadn’t done, you know, a lot of, sort of like public sector, public service stuff, besides like my personal involvement with my church and like different assignments and stuff that, that I, that I’d had through over throughout the years. And I’m like, what am I going to? And like in the past, you know, year or two ago, I was like, what am I going to write about my essays? Like, how is this all gonna fit in? And then boom, the pandemic hit at zoom. And I’ve always been a special project sky at zoom. I’d worked on the IPO deal team. I’d ran her for some Topia. And one thing that came up was we needed someone in the pandemic to spin up our international government affairs because once we became critical infrastructure for every nation on the world, uh, the government is very interested in what you’re doing and how you’re doing it.
Derek Pando:
And when you’re getting negative headlines, you need to address it. You have relationships, you need to be out, out, out in front. And so I spent a good part of last year, uh, helping build out our international government affairs program until we were able to hire a real professional who actually knew what he was doing to take it over. And so I was in meetings with, uh, you know, national security agencies. I was working with an agency that we’d hired to help us get in contact with different government officials around the world and let them know who we are. And it was insane because this is like exactly the sort of thing that with my goal, right. And my wife, and I’d always said, Hey, if we’re going to do this, we’re going to do it after, at about four years of being at zoom, you know, because of the way besting works and all that, like it just, this would be a natural time to do it.
Derek Pando:
And so it was, it was crazy cause it, it all came together. A lot of my different interests in public policy and the intersection of tech and relations with China and like you name it and had a lot of unique experiences that I think helped make a case for me to go to this program. And I applied and zoom was very supportive. In fact, you know, uh, my boss or CMO, Romy, live reputation, our CEO, Eric, and he’s always a big on following your dreams. And, you know, I, I feel fortunate enough that I got admitted. Uh, and, uh, so yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m doing. I’m going back to school.
Al Dea:
That’s exciting. Uh, what are you most excited about with going back to school?
Derek Pando:
I mean, besides like playing basketball three times a week, and I know I, you know, I I’m really looking forward to the whole experience. I mean, you know, as we talked about the MBA experience, I felt like that was transformative, like from a holistic point of view. And I’m hoping to kind of recreate that in a similar way, right. Where it’s, I’m exploring new topics. I’m very intellectually stimulated meeting, interesting people and have a chance to, um, you know, uh, scratch a few inches, passion wise that, uh, I’d been heading in a completely different direction, the last, you know, couple of years. And so, um, you know, that to me, I mean, when you think like, I, I joke around my wife, I don’t golf, I don’t watch sports. I don’t really have that many expensive hobbies, but like I love grad school. And so I am just excited to like, be a student again and learn and, you know, see what’s out there. Yeah.
Al Dea:
That’s great. Well, Derek, I really enjoyed this conversation and getting the chance to chat with you. I guess maybe just to end here, I would love to know what is, what does the future hold for Derek Pando? What can, uh, w what can we expect to see coming up out for you for the next couple of years?
Derek Pando:
I’ve enjoyed it as well. I think first thing is I need to buy a bunch of winter clothing to prepare for Boston decent. Uh, but I, I think, uh, other than that, I mean, I really want to see what’s out there for me in terms of public, the public sector, public service. And, you know, I think that could mean that I go into something like that full time, or maybe I find a marketing role this more like evangelizing a cause or a, an organization that, you know, has very altruistic motives, uh, or it could be, you know, bringing that into more of a social enterprise, something a little more entrepreneurial on my end. Yeah. So the, uh, there’s a lot of paths and I’m hoping to have some more clarity years. So maybe we have a follow-up and I’ll tell you, tell you, but those are the, those are the, the past that, that I’m, I, I’m going to walk a couple steps down and see which one is the best fit for me.
Al Dea:
Uh, well, wherever you end up, uh, they will be lucky to have you as a leader. So, uh, Derek, thank you so much for joining for jumping on the MBA podcast. It’s been great chatting
Derek Pando:
With you. It’s been great chatting with you. Thanks for having me.
Al Dea:
Hi, everyone, LD here, and thank you so much for listening to the MBA insider podcast. If you liked what you heard, make sure to head over to apple podcasts and to ride review will only take 15 seconds. I’d also love to hear what you’ve been listening to on the podcast and any suggestions you have for how we can improve. Find me on LinkedIn or head over to MBA school.com backslash podcast.