Powered by RedCircle
After graduating from UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School with her MBA, Kerry Rigley returned to her career in management consulting, and was able to take much of what she learned in business school to expand into new opportunities in her career. After breaking into serving new clients and new industries, Kerry then pivoted into an internal strategy role in the Travel and Hospitality Industry, and then again to a role within the tech industry. Through the successes and challenges, Kerry has learned valuable lessons along the way which have helped her grow personally and professionally. During our conversation, Kerry spoke about her life after graduating, how she has managed through the highs and lows of her career, as well how she is thinking about her career as an MBA Alum.
Listen today on Apple Podcasts or Spotify
Links:
Transcript
Al Dea (00:34):
Welcome back today. I’m excited because I have one of my very good friends and my classmates from UNC Kenan Flagler business school, Kerry Rigley here with me, Kerry and I graduated together and spent a lot of time together in business school. And I’m excited because we’ve stayed in touch ever since we both graduated, but what seems like many years ago, and I’ve seen her journey and her life after business school and her life after the MBA. And she’s always been someone who I’ve talked to and gone to for advice or just conversation about this whole notion of life after business school and what life is like after you graduate and after you get your MBA. And she is also got a great journey as well. So I’m excited to talk to her a little bit more about it and to get her thoughts on her own journey, her reflections, and what she’s also excited about moving forward. So with that, Carrie, thank you for being here and thank you for always being supportive of whatever endeavor I am working on, but let’s start with graduation. So let’s go back to May, 2015 walking across the stage, getting our diplomas from Dr. B and Dean Shackleford. Take me through where you were. What was your mindset? What were you thinking? Yeah, walk me through what that was like for you. Sure.
Kerry Rigley (01:45):
First off, thanks so much for having me Al it’s always wonderful to catch up both formally and informally, and you’ve been such a critical partner for me in navigating life after business school. So I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you on the topic when I think back to graduation. I think what’s so interesting. I’m curious how you feel about this with going full time is that it’s both a blessing and a curse that it’s truly a bubble. It’s wonderful in that it’s a fully immersive experience where you can be fully present within your classes and with your classmates and limit outside distractions of potentially the demands of having a full-time job. But I think also the idea that it’s a bubble makes it even more of a transition phase to go back to the real world air quotes, if you will. And what does that look like? Jess, even from the D one, the demands of a full-time job and leaving a good impression, but also just the change in lifestyle of being behind a computer or being more informal meetings and a settings. So I think that, to me, it was super exciting to re it was a restart of this next career chapter that it also came with fear of what this transition could look like. So certainly both a lot of mixed emotions on that day. Well, how do you, how did you feel? What do you remember?
Al Dea (02:58):
No, I agree. I think you definitely are on the nose with that description in terms of, there is always whenever you’re making a change, the concern about what’s to come. And so that’s definitely real. I do agree that for many of the reasons that you listed, the reason why be a business school can be great because of the bubble is also the thing that can make the transition difficult. Particularly if you’re not thinking about what they’re thinking about, the fact that because you’re moving back into something else, like it is going to be different again. So I definitely agree. I agree with that. It’s one of those things that what makes it great is also what makes it challenging in some ways. And I also, I also think that, and I’ve thought about this a lot since then. I think about the transition you have to make when you’re going to business school in the first place, and particularly early on how challenging the first Mott or the first two quarters or the first semester can be it’s like that it put it all in reverse the other way.
Al Dea (03:59):
Nothing a switch. Yeah. Yeah. So you’re going back. And I think for what was unique for us is that arguably we quote unquote had it easier because we went back to where we both went back to work to places that were familiar, at least somewhat familiar to us and think that at least, you know, maybe it looked a little different and we had more responsibility. In my case, I was in a different office. We had a little bit of familiarity versus of other classmates of ours and other, a lot of other people who are doing other things. But yeah, I know, I agree with you. And I think it’s a something that you said, you talked a little bit about going back into the workplace, going back and the expectations of a job, but yeah. Talk to me a little bit about what was it like to go back into the workplace after you had been on, in that MBA environment where you did have that bubble, where you did have the things that you were used to do for doing for 18 to 24 months, but then certainly getting back into the workplace. What was that like?
Kerry Rigley (04:55):
Yeah. So I think for me, I was never someone, I definitely take credit and stock through the value of my MBA and I, and it is a big part of who I am and from a credentialing perspective, but I was not somebody who is like, now that I have an MBA, I’m I have this badge that’s going to make me automatically successful. I’m coming back. So there was definitely elements of, of the imposter syndrome, even after this experience, um, of getting my MBA that felt even returning to a job that I knew for context for the listeners, I was in federal consulting before business school and then commercial consulting after business school. So while there was the threat of the same company, it was, there was elements of newness. And I think we all, I know I’ve talked to you before about that imposter syndrome, Alex and starting a new chapter and wanting to have the desire to leave a mark right away.
Kerry Rigley (05:43):
Some advice that I think you continue to you give me and that I try to emulate from you is take stock in who you are and reflect on your strengths. And you’re such a champion for self-reflection and knowing your strengths. That’s something that when I look back on starting the new job, I wish had done to say, what am I bringing to the table here? It’s not just the degree, but it’s how I grew as a person through that. And I think that the reminding of taking stock and my strengths and what I gained from the experience, what a position me better for success and to leave with confidence in that regard. Cause I’ll be honest, I have the memory of imposter syndrome and I think there’s some levers that I could have done differently from your advice to mitigate that.
Al Dea (06:19):
Sure. It’s funny that you bring up imposter syndrome. I knew it was going to come up at some point podcast, not because of the podcast, but because it comes up pretty much in every podcast that I do at some capacity. And it is just so unique and fascinating to me of how often it comes up in so many different contexts. And I totally understand. And again, it’s so funny because part of the reason why you were at king and flag were part of the reason why you got sponsored by a consulting firm is because of your capabilities and your competencies, but yet, and the same with, in my case too. So not a knock on you, but yet we still feel that this notion of in a moment or two of feeling inadequate or that we don’t measure up or that for whatever reason that we don’t have what it takes to be seen as successful or to achieve something which clearly objectively empirical evidence, which suggests that we do. And I don’t know, I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten to a point where you figured out what is driving that, or if you’ve thought about what is the thing that’s in your, that, that is in the voice in your head that is tripping that up or like bubbling that up and raising that for you. Has that, is that something you’ve ever figured out or ever thought about? Or is that just me that I just think about those things?
Kerry Rigley (07:35):
No, no. I have thought about it, but honestly you’re giving me good, like good homework, if you will. I, it’s something that I need to explore further. Honestly, it response to the question. It’s funny that I’m going to give back advice that you received. I think it was maybe it was good advice from a family member around understanding other people’s strengths. Like when you see strengths than others, sometimes I think for me it internalizes it imposter syndrome, but for you, you gave the advice. That means there’s something you can learn from them. Yeah. Um, so, uh, I think for me, it’s seeing so many strengths in others and not necessarily seeing them in myself, but channeling that differently. And I think that’s the advice that you, you know, that your, you shared with me once is channeling in a positive way that you have these things to learn from somebody, as opposed to saying that you’re not at their level. So these conversations are always a good reminder to me to go back on the advice and lessons.
Al Dea (08:25):
Yeah, no, I thank you for bringing it to my attention. That’s those for my dad. And it was, it’s a good, it’s a good piece of advice. And I think part of that is a mindset shift and a perspective shift. And in my case, he gave that advice to me when I was in middle school. And for me, I think the most valuable piece of it was, and that particularly that stage of my life, there was so much that I just couldn’t see because I just didn’t have that perspective because when you’re young, you don’t know anything. And so him being able to say that really flipped the switch, but I think it’s absolutely, I think it’s absolutely sound advice. One thing I wanted to go back to just, it is something that I love asking about just because I’ve eating about going in. A lot of times we think about business school as being fine and I don’t want to call it it to your vacation. You have a lot of fun moments. Right. I would be curious to know when you graduated, were you sad? Were you happy? Were you content? Were you like, oh my gosh, like I’m done with college, I’m doing business school. Like I’m never going to be able to go to college again. Like what did you feel like you were, yeah. Like how did you feel about, because at the end of the day you only get one business school. So like, were you, what did you feel like when you finished?
Kerry Rigley (09:33):
For me personally, I had, I was sad, but not with sadness to want to extend it or continue it, but with sadness and with great appreciation for the periods and a readiness to close this chapter and move on to the next one and test everything that I learned and apply it in the real world. And honestly make a paycheck is a big part of it too. And almost there’s an element. I think, of business school, where it was so special for what it was, the travel, the relationships, just the college elements. So living close to your peers, but there is an element where I was ready to adult again, make a paycheck, we’ll have life look a little different. So I think while I would never, I never took the experience for granted. It was an amazing two years. It was exactly what I hope for it, but I was ready for the transition and my heart breaks for all the students who had to be remote as part of their experience because the two years for me was the perfect amount of time for that. It’s for me personally. So I feel my heart breaks for the students who were planning to go full-time and that was cut short for that reason. What do you think, how did you feel on that day?
Al Dea (10:37):
Yeah, I think the word that I described to people to articulate how I felt is the word content. And it does encapsulate some of the feelings that you mentioned in my book, MBA insider to the last thing I write about is this idea. Again, a lesson for my dad, it’s just this notion of leaving it all out there. And so I, the analogy I use is on the basketball court when I was growing up and he was my coach, he used to always tell me at the end of the game, if you feel like you left it all out there, like you really gave it your all, then it doesn’t matter what happens in terms of the outcome. But if you didn’t feel like you did that well, then that’s something where you can improve on next time and more than anyone about what my schedule looked like in business school.
Al Dea (11:12):
And I know what your schedule looks like objectively. We left it all out there. It really I’m sure if I thought hard, I could think of maybe the one thing that for some reason I didn’t get to do, but I truly felt that I was able to get to do all the things that I really wanted to do and to do them with people like yourself and others. And yeah, I was sad to leave the people behind. I was sad to leave chapel hill and my $500 a month rent apartment, but I really did feel content knowing that I thought I had really made the most of the experience. And to your point, it was a great two years and sad to leave it behind, but content and knowing that there wasn’t much else I could have done. And so I would love to relive the glory days as much as everyone else to that degree. But I truly did feel like I had exhausted everything.
Kerry Rigley (12:00):
That’s well said. It almost says you got what you came there for in a way, which is great to have that perspective of going in what you wanted to get out of it. So you could be tactical about that. But yeah, I feel like I got what I came there for and it was, it was a great two years for that reason,
Al Dea (12:15):
For sure. For sure. So getting back into the post MBA life. So you’re back in consulting, you’re back in a job you’re earing a paycheck, talk a little bit more about what were some of the exciting aspects and also talk a little about what was hard or what was challenging about that? Yeah,
Kerry Rigley (12:34):
I would have to say the exciting aspects for me were that, you know, as I made the transition back to consulting and I was pretty tactical about wanting to enter commercial consulting with a specific focus on hospitality and industry that I was passionate about, then I was able to do that. So for me, that was just fantastic to have to work. I think for me, I look at jobs as we want to have some connection point to something you’re interested, whether it’s the type of work, whether it’s the industry, whether it’s the team, there’s gotta be something that fuels you every day. You want every single one of those things, but if you could just have one that’s great. So for me to work in hospitality was super exciting and to be embarking on a new chapter there, I think some of the things that were, um, challenging about it, maybe we’re working through the lows and the resilience sometimes when you graduate and you start a new chapter with an MBA, I think there’s, everybody has rolled rose colored glasses on this is going to be the start of the rest of my life.
Kerry Rigley (13:27):
And while that was true, and there was a lot of excitement that surrounded that when let’s just say I was on the road week after week for travel, or if there was a fight meant I’m Ted’s with a coworker, there were lows that sometimes I think force you to question your decisions. And for me, I think what I learned in those first few years is to try to take learnings from that or to power through them that you have a vision. You walk for me. I wanted everything to be perfect, but being resilient through the lows and using mentorship to guide me through the lows. And I’d probably say another challenge was just around. I think it’s on a similar thread of, because of the travel was more challenging than I expected when I was traveling for a while navigating through that to say, okay, maybe this part isn’t exactly what I thought, but what do I do about that? And that was working with mentors to get advice too, about how to just continually moving the marker to refine the experience. I’d say it was coupled with excitement, but also just trying to figure out when something wasn’t right. Like, all right, what do I do about this now? This isn’t what I thought it was.
Al Dea (14:26):
Yeah. And on that, just to drill down into those what you’re just talking about. Cause I agree with you and I think that makes sense, but when you’re in those challenging moments yes it’s to keep going. But what does that actually look like? Because I get it, but like how, uh, if it were easy, if it were that easy, right. We wouldn’t be having this conversation, but what does that actually, what did that actually look like for you? What was either, what did you have to, what was the soft self-talk in your head? Like how did you, how did you work through that? Because I don’t think what you experienced is a singular to you. I think it’s something that everyone else does. And so I would just be curious to know how you were able to navigate and manage through that.
Kerry Rigley (15:07):
Yeah. So I think, I think I gotta be honest and say that I didn’t play my cards exactly right. In those situations. And I think it could be, but I’ll use two examples of either one project that I wish I was struggling with or let’s just say the travel was getting to me. I think sometimes when you’re new in a job or at least for me, I felt I had to solve all those problems on my own. Like I got to make the most of this project. I can’t be the person that’s the complainer or the travel super hard. Like maybe consulting’s not right for me. And I think I looked at that I needed to solve a lot of these challenges myself. And in hindsight, I wish that I engaged mentors earlier in how I was feeling. I think my lesson learned is it’s okay to it’s okay to have grievances of the right level perhaps, or if you’re seeking constructive criticism or constructive feedback for it. I never wanted to be a complainer. And I think I channel by channel some of that negative energy too long, which made me then prompt my next career. Change it. Think about leaving consulting to the next chapter. When I wonder if I had sought out feedback and constructive conversations about how to manage the things that I didn’t like, if I could have maybe set myself up for success better, maybe it would have chartered a new path that I don’t even know about today.
Al Dea (16:17):
Yeah. I think that’s a good point. And I think one of the things that I often think about as a paradox between two competing viewpoints and to your point, I think there’s one competing viewpoint to what you’re articulating of being able to pay attention to when something isn’t feeling right or something is feeling out of whack. And then the other competing viewpoint is just this notion of being able to work through something right. And to keep going. And I think what’s hard sometimes is to be able to make space for both thoughts while you’re going through a particularly hard thing. And depending on what it is like, there’s probably a time when you need to lean more into this is not working. I need to get out or need to find another solution. And then there are other times when you maybe need to say, hold on a second, let’s hold space for this and let’s work through this. And I think that I don’t know the playbook for how to navigate that. I think it’s more art than it is science. I would wish I could say that I was better at it than I am, but I also think that’s just more of a reflection of just the realities of life. Life is much more about the gray. Maybe then maybe it on the black and white.
Kerry Rigley (17:31):
Right. I would agree like in the gray, I think back to that time, I say I, I set up great mentors. I found great mentors. Why was I afraid to be honest with them about my challenges because they maybe could have helped me. They maybe could have had great advice that would have chartered a new path or offered a new perspective. So think there’s an element when we transitioned out of business school to be a good soldier like, and make the biggest impact you can. And don’t show if you’re struggling for me, at least I didn’t want to show that I was too afraid of showing that this maybe wasn’t the right place at the right choice when it definitely was. And it would have been perfectly fine for me to rely on my mentors in those challenging times when things weren’t enfolding exactly how I expected.
Al Dea (18:17):
I think that’s a really good point. And one of the things I’ve often thought about is sometimes the narratives that we hold true are the narratives that we tell ourselves. And I think if we think about business school for rightfully or wrongfully the narrative, a lot of times that we tell ourselves as MBA students in this MBA alum is that you go there, you work hard for two years. You figure out what it is you want to do. And you pivot to that new thing, or you accelerate in the path to where you want to go next and you graduate. And then you go off and you’re off to the races. And whenever something happens that maybe perhaps, uh, goes against that narrative that you’ve taught yourself, you, I think a natural kind of reaction is to think that something’s wrong. And so the two things are number one, the narratives that maybe we tell ourselves, maybe mirror may not be as true as we think that they are, right.
Al Dea (19:08):
Maybe there’s fault in them. But number two, the re when something, a reaction to the narrative, if the narrative is false, if the narrative is wrong, the reaction to that narrative that we have could also maybe be wrong. Like maybe it was me, maybe not only was the narrative false, but like maybe it was that reaction to it false too. And that’s something that I’ve thought about a little bit since I graduated, because I’ve had this conversation before with so many other people to what you were just saying, I thought I needed to be feeling this, or I thought I needed to be feeling not. Well, then it’s like, what if you weren’t supposed to be feeling like, what if that was the false, what if that was the false lie or not lie, but yeah, sure.
Kerry Rigley (19:44):
And I wonder if it’s also one thing I was curious if you even discuss, is it because of the pressure we put on ourselves for that first job that causes us to say, I put so much thought into this, that stepping stone to the MBA program for this first job, I can’t allow myself to question or feel any type of negative feelings towards this because of the amount of pressure that we put on that first chapter. And my biggest lesson learned in hindsight is it, wasn’t just about one chapter was about the next chapter after that and the next chapter after that. But in the moment, it was really hard to see that in the imperfections of that first chapter, I
Al Dea (20:19):
Think that’s such a great point. And I think it’s two things. Number one, I think it’s what you said in terms of the, the, the pressure that maybe we put on ourselves. But I also think it probably, and, and that pressure, by the way, that didn’t start in business school, like the reason why you’re in business school, the reason why you got to PMC, same with me, it’s only just because quite frankly, that pressure has always been there. It’s it’s and not to pat ourselves on the back, but like generally speaking, I think it’s probably for anyone who’s getting into a top MBA program, whether you want to acknowledge it or not part of the reason why you’ve probably been at least a part of the reason why you’ve been successful is because of a driving force. And sometimes that is maybe perhaps insecurity. So I think that’s part of it.
Al Dea (21:00):
I think the other part of it, and this is where honestly, sometimes I even doing these podcasts, or even as a someone who works in the career space, I often have to be careful. We’re very good at playing Monday morning quarterback and re-architecting the narrative of our stories of how we move from place to place. And if you think about going back to business school, when you start doing like your resume walk, right, it’s like you have to connect the dots in a way that makes sense to the recruiter. And that’s fine for the purposes of it. But I think that gets so ingrained sometimes into our way of thinking and way of operating and to the points that we just made. We all know that the life is more in the gray. Like it doesn’t like, it’s not like a graph that it’s not a business school graph, that hockey stick graph that goes like up into the right all the time.
Al Dea (21:49):
And I also think too, it’s funny because I do remember people saying this to us in business school, but perhaps we’re just too, not too in the weeds to notice it, but the notion of, Hey, everyone, like you should really focus on getting this job, but also know that there’s plenty of people or there’s going to be a good portion of your class at the two year mark after business school who moves on to a new job or a new career, like it’s just going to happen. And I do remember hearing that and being like, yeah, I could see how that makes sense, but it just didn’t necessarily feel real. And then certainly now, but certainly now, like you and I both, I remember I probably texted you. I know I texted some of our other friends, like when I first classmate left, maybe, oh my God.
Al Dea (22:29):
But, and so I do think that they, there are some schools where they do try to tell you that, but I guess we’re just too in the weeds to really pay attention or maybe to two, just lasered in to what’s going on to really be able to make sense of something like that. Because I know at least when I work with students, what I always tell them is look the for 99.5% of you, the next job you take is not going to be the last one. And so everything you learn about career development and business school is going to go with you forever and ever. And I really try to hammer home that message because to what you said, it’s going to be normal. If you in a couple of years, want to change industries or want to change functions or roles, or what have you.
Kerry Rigley (23:07):
I completely agree. I don’t. I remember hearing it and I don’t know why my natural reaction was like, that’s not me. And that’s not everybody else. Everybody’s really finding the next biggest thing. And I’m the first person to say I’ve had many, I’ve had more chapters than I ever expected since business school, but why? I didn’t believe that was my headline here. Thinking about life after business school is like that same message, but I don’t really know why maybe to your point it’s because we’re so in the weeds, why is it so hard to accept in the moment? Or why did I not think that was me? I’m not sure.
Al Dea (23:37):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, let’s, let’s actually talk about that for a second. What, what is something that you wish you knew about life business school now that you’ve lived through it for a few years, and now that you have the benefit of hindsight?
Kerry Rigley (23:50):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me, in addition to what we just talked about, that it’s not a ladder, it’s not a hockey stick. There are twists and turns. The second thing is probably the importance of self-reflection. And I think Al you’ve really led the way in this of looking like reflecting on yourself and seeing how that could need, we’ve talked previously about how that segue to your transition, to product marketing in the sense of like you reflect on what you’re good at, you reflect, what makes you happy? And then that church, the course, I think that I wish I had done more self-reflection and I wish I continue to do more. Self-reflection it’s a new year’s resolution for me, if you will, that I need to self-reflect to find my re the right career opportunities for me. And I would, that’s really what I’m striving for going forward.
Kerry Rigley (24:32):
And what I would encourage others to do is to not look at the menu or cookie cutter, but really reflect on who you are as a person. What are your strengths and what makes you happy? And try to sit in the moment and picture yourself in that job and saying, would this make me happy as an individual? Not what I think it would make somebody else happy. And I could do that too, but what would make me as an individual happy? And I think that, I wish, I think we do a lot of exercises that for self-reflection in business school, but for some reason, I think there’s more to be done. And just sitting with your thoughts and being self-critical about what makes you happy personally and professionally, and then try to cultivate that.
Al Dea (25:09):
Yeah. And I’d be curious to know from your end, what, cause you’re right. There are exercises to be done from my experience. It’s not a one and done it’s more of a journey, but short of just telling someone goes, self-reflect like, what, what else did you do? Or like, how did again, like how did that play out for you outside of just me being like, Carrie, go do this, it’ll help you. And it
Kerry Rigley (25:34):
Caused me making a mistake to realize the appreciation of it, or I saw you doing it, but I didn’t know I had to do it. And I’ll be honest with them, with all your listeners to say that it took me choosing a wrong job to realize how important self-reflection was. So for example, I left PWC in 2018 at the end of 2018, after three years after business school. And I took a job with a RP, which was a nonprofit. And I told myself at the time, after three years of consulting, I really wanted to enter the non-profit space and being in DC, it’s the largest nonprofit. I can make a mark here and quickly into that chapter. I realized the culture, the pace, the career opportunities. I glazed over those factors as I was interviewing to say, is this the right fit? Really? Self-reflect as to what I strive off of.
Kerry Rigley (26:22):
And I hate to say it, I’m not proud that I only stayed there for three months, but I do feel I need to be transparent and honest that it took me making a mistake to realize how critically important it is when I know we’d go into interviews and we try to get as much out of it. But I don’t know if I was listening when I was asking questions about my next job. I think I was asking them because I thought the right thing to do in was to ask questions and I wasn’t really listening and connecting it back to who I was as a person. So it took me making a wrong move to realize the importance of self-reflection. And that’s what spring-boarded me to join. Marissa, as in there as a senior director in their consulting practice to be like, I gotta get more closely aligned to my values career-wise but unfortunately it took a wrong turn to, to really appreciate that.
Al Dea (27:07):
I think, I think it’s, I think, first of all, thank you for sharing that and for your vulnerability and your honesty. And I think that’s sometimes experience period is always a great teacher, right? For better or worse. Again, going with a theme here, drilling down for a second, what was it like to be in a job and to go to it every day for those three months? What was it like on an average day to go to work and do the things and have that notion and that nagging of is this right for me? Or did I make the wrong decision? What did that feel like or look like for you?
Kerry Rigley (27:38):
Um, I guess it wasn’t that long before I realized this wasn’t the, for me long-term and I used that as a springboard to just say similar force. It almost ties back to what we said earlier. Allow yourself to, to feel the negative, to feel that okay, this doesn’t feel right. Be in that moment and then find ways to correct it. So I think for me, it was about being honest with myself and using it as a springboard to my next opportunity and just taking stock in the fact that I made a mistake and being honest with the leadership that I was working with there and committing to not doing that again. So for me, I think that was key. I’m curious though, when we think about self-reflection I know you’ve done it, but how do you make act for me? I feel like you do it so automatically and you’re so in tune to it, but I’d love to hear your perspective as well as to, to how you channel your own self reflection into your career choices.
Al Dea (28:25):
Yeah, it’s, it’s a really good question. I think part of it is part of my just general disposition and personality. And so I’m fortunate in that regard, I would say, I think another aspect of it is that I have been through 10 years of Jesuit education. And so this, the notion of reflection and intentionality is just a bedrock of a Jesuit education. And so from a very young age, and it was just hammered into me, one of the very first things you learn, if you go to a Jesuit school is the th the three BS be attentive, be reflective and be loving. And so those are things that just have always been a part of who I am that said, I still definitely get it wrong or not get it wrong. I still definitely have periods where I it’s not there, or I definitely still have periods where I have to wake up and remember to make space to do it.
Al Dea (29:12):
And I think there’s a couple of things that sometimes bring me back to center. So number one, I think, oh, I, it was interesting. I was listening to a podcast and someone was saying like, pay attention to your body because your buddy, that body doesn’t lie. If I’m ever having some kind of health issue, that’s always a, and we used to starting point or a point where I need to ask myself what’s going on. Even just starting with that question. And that usually is enough to start asking me leading to me to ask to other questions. I think the body’s an amazing thing. And I sometimes it knows it’s itself better than we are know ourselves. And so that’s absolutely something that I pay attention to. I think number two, a part of it is also just surrounding myself with people who maybe not so much make me reflect, but surrounding myself with people who encourage me to be who I am and to lean into the things that I do.
Al Dea (30:08):
And not a lot of times it will mean that they encourage me to do it, but a lot of times it’s really just them getting me to, to, to go back to being who I am. And, and again, as I said before, because it is ingrained in me, I eventually come back to it. But the third is to what you were saying, because I have been through business school and other things, I do have a series of exercises that I always have in the back corner. Certainly also doing this work that I do. It also just naturally leads to a lot of thoughts and ideas and conversations. So that certainly helps as well. But I think the first two things in terms of what’s in your body and then surrounding yourself by people that continue to push you to think and challenge yourself. I think that is something that, that definitely helps.
Al Dea (30:51):
And then I think what also finally helps is just, I have a pretty clear purpose of who I am and the person I want to be. And so if I have, because I have that, it gives you a good kind of mile marker. If you will, are you tracking right? And if you are great, but if you’re not, that’s always a good chance for you to think about, okay, what would it look like if I were to get back on track? Or how could I do this in a different or better way, but that’s, what’s, that’s, what’s worked for me.
Kerry Rigley (31:20):
So it’s like a north star, like having, you know, keep you centered. Yeah, it does. It
Al Dea (31:25):
Does. And that’s hard. Right? And I think it’s easy to tell people to, to find a north star. It’s like one of those things simple, but not easy. It’s a simple concept, but it’s, sometimes it’s a journey to sometimes figure out it doesn’t necessarily come naturally or right away for all of us. And I think, and even now I’m definitely particularly because we’re doing this like right in the beginning of the year, like I definitely spent some time over the holidays, reflecting in terms of what are my goals, where am I trying to go? What are my values and those types of things. And I got there, but it wasn’t like the first shot. Like I had all the answers, like, no, like it, it, it took me a bunch of conversations with myself or with some other people to like eventually get to a point, but I think what’s ingrained in me and why I always eventually get there is just the pursuit of it is something that I’ve always been after. So that helps, but not everyone’s wired that way. I think
Kerry Rigley (32:11):
It’s almost just to connect everything we talked about is like, because we have an appreciation for the fact that it’s not a ladder hockey stick and there are twists and turns navigating those twists and turns, require a greater sense of self than I ever expected. So if I needed to realize one, okay, it’s not a ladder. Okay. Oh, oh, wow. Knowing what I want to be able to figure out the twist center is hugely important. And I definitely underestimated that.
Al Dea (32:34):
Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of twists and turns, so you, the job of the non-profit didn’t work out, you eventually pivoted to something else. Can you talk about that process of unwinding from the nonprofit and then the next twist and turn that you had to make?
Kerry Rigley (32:49):
Yeah. So I just so interesting how I think career searches definitely X percent, mostly majority intention and some luck. And I do have to say I was very lucky to have an opportunity to join Mariano as a senior director within their consulting practice, which at the time I think would have, I wouldn’t told you that’s my dream job. So when I did to be able to use the, the nonprofit in springboard to get back on track, I would just say that was, that was huge in my career. And I think that we need to remember that, but if you veer off course, you can get back on course. Um, so I got back on course for me of what, how it, where I want, wanted to go when I joined Marriott then in early 2018. And I think the biggest piece of advice that I could offer your listeners, there is sometimes finding the right thing takes longer than you think.
Kerry Rigley (33:32):
I think there’s a school you’re on a timeline of applications. And you’re obviously choosing a start date that for me, leaving business school and finding a place of where I was looking for my next opportunity, the right one takes a watt. I think I asked you this, Alan, I’m curious if you thought it was mind blowing to me how long it took for me to land the right thing. But when I did so worth the wait. So how do you feel about that? Like, just in terms of the general piece of advice of like, it takes a long time, longer than I expected to find the next opportunity?
Al Dea (34:00):
I think so a couple of things. I think number one, I don’t know if there is a, I would argue there isn’t a quote unquote long time. There is only the time that it takes for you. Is it just like an overarching theme? But I do think what it speaks to is that I think we all have a desire to want to do something that is aligned to either our goals, things that we are engaged in or around people that we want to work with each and every day. And I think that we’re naturally wired to exp we, again, going back to this, we tend to do things. And so when it doesn’t align perfectly, the natural disposition is to think that we did something wrong. When I think if anything I’ve learned in life is that it, it like X doesn’t, oh, it doesn’t always equal and it’s not always like X and then Y right.
Al Dea (34:58):
There’s some nuance that kind of goes in there. But I think I would argue probably how you learn that was because of the fact that you went through that yourself in terms of the next step after PWC, it wasn’t objectively at the time, the right step for you, but then you found it on the next go around. It sounds like. And so it was good. And that’s, I think that’s also part of it, right? It’s it’s, it’s not, uh, it it’s, it works. If it’s not the right thing, like then you move on and then you find something and then it is, it’s not the right thing until it, it is. And that’s like a simple saying in and of itself, but I think the other things, and again, this goes back to a little bit of imposter syndrome, but more speaks to just the comparison game. Cause you, you naturally are going to look at your classmate who did find the right thing. And then you’re going to think, oh, because I don’t have it. And they do, then I did something wrong when in reality that’s not necessarily the case. And so I think that part of it also is something that, that kind of creeps in.
Kerry Rigley (36:01):
I totally agree. I think I shouldn’t have said that. I agree with you. It’s not a long time. It’s more about just not getting discouraged then and just constantly striving for the next chapter and the acknowledgement that everything needs to unfold in a certain manner. It does. One thing does lead to the next, even if I can’t see it in the moment. So I definitely agree with everything you shared,
Al Dea (36:22):
But it’s hard. I will say it is hard. And I think we said this earlier, it is hard in the moment in the trenches to be able to keep necessarily keep going and keep believing. It’s not, do we make we say do it, but I know it’s not easy because I’ve been in those moments and it is hard. But I do think, and then bringing this back to the MBA, I think that’s when you do have to lean on what the MBA gave you and the work that you did in business school, both from a content and knowledge perspective, but from also where relationships and resourcefulness and skill building perspective to have the ability to navigate through those really challenging moments. And I think that to me can be where the real power of the MBA really comes in. Is that when it’s going good, everyone’s, that’s fine. Everyone can handle that. But when it gets tough, that’s really, I think not only do you learn about your character and what you’re made of, but you also learn about what tools you have at your disposal to be able to work through a really challenging time. And I, and that’s when certainly lean on your classmates and lean on the alumni network or lean on whatever it is you learned from the career development work that you did in school. And I think that’s what, uh, that’s what can help.
Kerry Rigley (37:30):
Yes. I think back to how many conversations I was able to have over the course of each of the transition periods, following my MBA and just how lucky I am to have had the sounding board within you and among others to, to work through some of that stuff. I think there’s some element to, without that I, a funny thing came to mind. I’m like those things where people do Instagram versus reality, but like they look different. I think sometimes we see a job change on LinkedIn and think it might’ve been so easy or you compare yourself with the other person, but having the network of classmates through the MBA experience allows you to get under the hood and talk about in the same way that you’re bringing this out to the public. But what was that transition? It’s a continued opportunity to learn from each other’s experiences, but I’ve definitely, I definitely still do that. I just was doing it recently. So the MBA is truly valuable and like taking stock in my strengths and the experiences, but also the continued opportunities to connect and refine my thinking on how to approach the next chapter.
Al Dea (38:24):
Yeah. So that’s a good segue. Let’s talk about that because you certainly have had, as you mentioned, you’ve had to really think about changing things and navigating through change again in this time as we were impacted by COVID-19, but it certainly had some impacts on you. Can you talk a little bit about that experience and how you were able to navigate through that?
Kerry Rigley (38:45):
Sure. Yeah. So COVID-19 was really interesting, obviously for all of us, we were all impacted in different ways, but particularly working in hospitality. I was about a year into my position at Marriott when obviously the hospitality was quite devastated by current virus, our business in general. So I ended up going on a six month for low, and then to learn that my position was eliminated, but I had the opportunity to be rehired back into a new, as a slightly similar role, which I definitely took advantage of. So it certainly was, as I mentioned, Melissa has probably heard me say earlier that I was, this was the dream job. I thought I had landed my dream job just a year ago and then to watch it crumble so quickly was terrifying. And I think it was a true opportunity to practice resilience. And I did not do that every day, but I tried.
Kerry Rigley (39:30):
And I know that you were a huge sounding board for me, just about how to think about what this could look like. And I was grateful to return to Marriott in, let’s see in late 2020, but I radically enough, I’m happy to share that through trying to be resilient and look for new opportunities. It actually presented a new opportunity for me to join the technology industry just a few short weeks here. So I recently resigned from Marriott and I’m about to start a new chapter with Facebook. And it just goes to show that like in the moment, things were super hard and I really thought I lost my dream job, but another door open, but I had no idea that was going to happen. So I think for me, COVID-19 definitely impacted me in the moment, but above all, it taught me resilience. And I hope when I’m down in the dumps of the future, I’ll know, to, to reflect back on this experience and I’m excited to, to enter a new industry now, and it was by choice. I didn’t have to leave, but then a new opportunity presented itself. So I’m really excited about what’s to come.
Al Dea (40:28):
And in this instance, arguably, you had to do something in the sense that number one, you were impacted by COVID, but number two, you were furloughed. And so you had time to do things, but similar, but similarly to before where we talked about maybe those challenging moments when it was hard to push through, but in this one you were able to push through. And so I’m just curious, how are you able to navigate this challenging moment this time, maybe perhaps in new ways or in a different way that maybe was you weren’t able to necessarily as well in the past?
Kerry Rigley (41:01):
Yeah, so I think it’s so interesting how so many of these things link together, but again, it was all about, again, self reflection, self reflection, okay. If it’s not going to be this opportunity and being realistic about that, that a career in hospitality may not be the best thing going into 2021. What is another opportunity? And I think one of the things that I learned was not casting a net, but really being more thoughtful after I had done that self reflection about the opportunities that I could go after. And again, that kind of also Ted comes back to taking stock in your confidence. I didn’t need to go apply for everything under the sun, but really being strategic about what I did go after. So that was a big lesson learned, was being thoughtful about what I applied to NEC. And I think that comes down to just like also reflecting on how I define success in my career. I had to think about like, it’s not a career with Marriott. What does success look like? I’m ahead. And using that to guide the opportunities that I applied for.
Al Dea (41:54):
Yeah. And actually just as a followup to that, what do you, what do you define as success in your career now?
Kerry Rigley (42:01):
Yeah, so I think it would probably be about, I look to be able to do, to join an opportunity or, and it doesn’t have to be a new job, but within a new team, a new experience where I bring something to the table and I’m bringing my capabilities and I’m bringing the talent and experience that I have. But then there’s an, because I want to feel that I am, um, it’s at the right level, but I also want to feel that I can grow and learn. So I think for me, it’s like about two sides of the coin, is this the right opportunity where I can bring something and I can leave an impact, but is this also the right opportunity? Because there’s more for me to raise the bar and the direction that I want to go in. And similar to your point earlier, is it going to get me to that next thing?
Kerry Rigley (42:40):
Is this going to continue to help me develop as a professional? And that’s critical to that whole self-reflection about and knowing where you want to go to be able to look at that opportunity and say, can I, does it allow me to capitalize on who I am and does it allow me to continue to grow and develop? So I think I learned that it’s not about like team size or title, but it’s about those two things. And for me, that’s been critically important to just selecting the right opportunity for me. I’d love to hear what, how you define it, what led to here, when you think about that and how you’re looking at success right now in your career. Yeah,
Al Dea (43:12):
No, I think so a couple things for me, I think so number one, I think for what’s always been true for me and it goes back to my own belief system and the Jesuit education fundamentally, the Jesuits always do, which is ingrained in a lot of my thinking is just this idea of figuring out what your talent and super powers are and using them in ways to drive impact for others. And I think that’s always been something that I have been focused on, whether they realize it or not, but it’s more crystallized more and more over the past few years, as I’ve figured out more and more ways in which I can go and do that. And so I think that part of me has always been a measure of success in terms of how am I using my talents every day in a way that drives impact that’s bigger than myself.
Al Dea (43:51):
I think one of the other things that I think about is that as I think about more about my talents and superpowers, I tend to have an ability to be able to bring out the best in others and to empower others, to actually do the same for other people. So too, a big component of that is being able to motivate and inspire and to motivate others, to be their best, and then to inspire them to do that for other people. And so those to me are really the barometers in which I measure myself and think about how successful I am and the ways in which I do that happened through my day job. It happens through this, that happened when I say this sat through podcasting or anything else that I do, but those are the ways in which I look success. And I think as we know, when I, I feel better when I can measure that, and then I can see when I’m doing that or doing more of that versus when I’m doing less of it.
Al Dea (44:43):
But also when I’m not doing it, it’s what keeps me on track and spurs the questions of what else can I be doing or how could I be doing different this differently? But now I look at it. And then the reason why I have found that to be helpful to me is because to the point that you made, I’m not going to be CEO anytime soon of the company that I work at, like I’m just not. And I, and I nor do I want to, I mean, so titles are great. More money is better than less money, but I don’t know, like it’s, for me, at least that’s not something those extrinsic measures are not the end all be all. And what that’s allowed me to do, and what’s freeing about it, at least for me, is that it opens your aperture and it opens the amount of opportunities that you can pursue when you’re not just thinking about titles in boxes, on an org chart.
Kerry Rigley (45:35):
Absolutely. I completely agree. And it’s so funny. I don’t mean to him or one point home, but in what, in your response to it was so tied to who you are as a person and knowing that, and I just don’t know why I underestimated that for so long, but I’d almost give the same advice to people, which I talked about this with my family the other day, like why don’t when we go into undergrad and we have to choose a major, we don’t put more emphasis on self-reflection to drive our career and to drive that major selection of what we do after undergrad too. Cause I do see a lot of parallels between the two and what success looks like in our lives.
Al Dea (46:07):
No, I totally agree. And I think, I agree. I think there should be more, I, as someone who went to a school where they did really hammer that home, I first personally saw the benefits, not only just for myself, but for my classmates and my friends. And so I certainly encourage it. That’s what I also very much acknowledge, particularly at that stage in your life you don’t
Kerry Rigley (46:27):
Right? Yeah. Well said too. Yeah, totally agree.
Al Dea (46:31):
I said that doesn’t, that shouldn’t preclude you from wanting to do it. It just may not necessarily always like, I think there’s, I agree. Like, I think there should be, I would love to see more of it myself like that. Yeah.
Kerry Rigley (46:41):
I think that’s a really great point though. There’s always, it’s so easy in hindsight to come back with solutions. So that is so right on about what you know about that stage of life as well. And that’s why it’s, that’s why it’s good things that we have multiple chapters.
Al Dea (46:54):
Yeah, that’s absolutely right. You’re absolutely right, Carrie, thank you so much for being here today and for this engaging conversation, I love it, I guess maybe just to close out here. So by the time this was really is released. A lot of MBA students will be graduating and transitioning into this kind of life after business school, life after the MBA phase. So what advice do you have for people who are going to be graduating for business school about life after business school?
Kerry Rigley (47:19):
I’d say life after business school, and you’re not going to be able to plan out everything. It might not be as you expected, there’ll be twists and turns, but your resilience in light of those twists and turns will drive you to your next opportunity. It’s hard to remember that in the moment, but that’s why we all are here to remind each other of that. And thank you to Al for reminding me of that and relisten to this podcast, when you might doubt that as well. So I’d say it won’t unfold. It may, it likely will not unfold exactly as you as plan, but your resilience and new opportunities will make sense after the fact. And thank you so much for having me. I really do always enjoy our conversations and it just great to talk with you further today.