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After graduating with an MBA from the University of Michigan (Ross) Jodi Innerfield moved to San Francisco to start her post-MBA career working in a Product Marketing role at a startup. Since then, she’s moved to larger companies and has built a career at Salesforce and moved back across the country to the East Coast. During our conversation, we spoke about her life after graduating from Ross as well as some of the exciting opportunities and challenges of life after business school. Jodi also spoke about her career journey, how she views her own career development, and her advice to MBA graduates for how to best launch their post-MBA careers.
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Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Al Dea (00:34):
Welcome to the MBA insider podcast. My name is Al di I’m the host of the MBA insider podcast and the founder of MBA school.com. And today I’m excited because I have with me, my friend and my colleague, Jodi inner field, Jodi is a Ross MBA graduate from the class of 2016, as well as a colleague of mine at work. And today we’re going to talk about life after business school. What happens after you get your MBA graduate and go back into the quote unquote, real world, going to talk to Jodi, just about her experience, the journey that she’s been on, both in terms of work and life, as well as how she thinks about career development as an MBA graduate. Uh, so first and foremost, Jodi, thank you so much for joining me. I do want to start just with a warm up question because I always love giving one. And I know I’ve asked you this before, but I want to hear it again. So you have to pick one song from Hamilton. Just one. What is it?
Jodi Innerfield (01:22):
I, God, everyone’s getting their vaccines. So it’s got to be my shot. That’s that’s like the theme song right now. So do not throw away your shot
Al Dea (01:33):
Please. Don’t PSA. Do not throw away your shot. We are not licensed medical professionals.
Jodi Innerfield (01:38):
Great PS. Like, I don’t know why. There’s not that I watch cable, but there should be commercials. Vaccine PSS.
Al Dea (01:45):
Yeah. Hamilton, if you’re listening to this and well, like if you’re listening to this take Jodi’s advice, we need a PSA on taking a vaccine. I love that. Okay. Go back in the time machine Jodi with me, take me back to your MBA graduation. And we were just talking, this is like your five-year anniversary. So take me back five years. What was on your mind? So what were you thinking?
Jodi Innerfield (02:07):
I remember being really upset, actually quite devastated to leave Michigan. So yeah, I went to Michigan Ross graduated in 2016 and I think our graduation is in April end of April, which is like really crazy early for any school. But also when you’re hoping that your business school experience won’t ever end, it’s particularly jarring to have it end in April. I think it had like snowed the week before or something. And maybe that was Michigan in April. So any weather goes with anyway, I remember being really sad to leave because I had built such great friendships. I had learned so much, I had such a wonderful experience, but I also didn’t have a job lined up, which I think is not the experience. Anyone expects to find themselves in when they’re graduating from business school, it’s like you go to business school to get a job. And most people have their job lined up. If not at the end of their first internship, then definitely by fall, but I didn’t have a job lined up. So I think I was also really nervous to graduate because there was like, like I gotta put the pedal to the metal on my recruiting because I was looking to do just-in-time recruiting. And so graduation day meant it was time to look because now I can start a job at anytime. A little frightening.
Al Dea (03:29):
Sure, sure. So you graduate, you don’t have a job, but your job searching. What happened next? How did you work
Jodi Innerfield (03:36):
Through that? I decided to give myself a little bit of grace. So I did one of our post MBA trips. We did a trip to Israel, so a bunch of Israeli students, every year plan, I track Israel track. And so it’s like NBA birthright trip basically. And so I went to Israel for a week and a half with my classmates and then stayed a little bit longer with my family. So I gave myself like three or like a month basically I would have my post MBA hurrah and then came back to my mom’s house in New Jersey and really, yeah, put the pedal to the metal on recruiting. So I again does some time recruiting. I was looking for product marketing roles and I had been looking the whole year. I don’t want it to sound like I didn’t do any reading until I graduated. I had done a ton of outreach, a ton of, uh, informational interviews and virtual coffee chats with people to really understand what is a product marketing role, what type of company I may be interested in.
Jodi Innerfield (04:39):
I did apply to companies throughout my fall and spring, but the, what I had heard from recruiters is call us when you’re, when you’ve graduated. So I did, I reached back out to some of the recruiters that I had been in contact with. And I think by that point in the year, and in my job search, I had really narrowed down where I thought I would be successful. So I knew I wanted to product marketing, but I also knew that it would be a really hard uphill battle to get just any product marketing job, because I was making this career change. I had been in human resources before business school. So at that point I had narrowed my search down, primarily the HR tech companies were, or other companies that were selling into any sort of human resources buyer, because I knew that I could probably really position myself well because I had been in HR.
Jodi Innerfield (05:27):
So I applied to a bunch of companies and actually really quickly got a couple of interviews. And so did some phone screens. And then I had actually been looking at companies in San Francisco because that’s where I wanted to be afterschool. And this was obviously pre pandemics and doing a interview over zoom or Google Hangouts is not the thing for final rounds was flying out to San Francisco. So for, I think it was two different companies. I flew out to San Francisco, I think was like in San Francisco one week back in New Jersey, back to San Francisco and another week doing these final round interviews, one company paid for the trip, the other company didn’t. And I had to pay my own way, which is a fun thing to do when you’re just totally broke, just graduated from business school. But yeah, I actually very luckily was able to find a job within about a month and a half of my search and after graduation. So by early July I had signed an offer and by August 1st over that in San Francisco getting started at work.
Al Dea (06:32):
That’s great. And I’m just curious because so many people not only make career changes, but they also make geographic changes. We think of a classic example, is you, in terms of working in tech, high-tech obviously has a lot of jobs in Silicon valley and you moved out to the bay area, but I know other people are making geographic changes as well. And also just given where you are in life, moving to the west coast for the first time would love to know, maybe know what was your experience like not only just with the career change, but also just with making a life change in terms of living on a new coast, living in a brand new city, how did that experience go?
Jodi Innerfield (07:03):
I would say the location change was probably more jarring than the career change because I am a new Yorker. And so it was very much a bit of a, this is going to sound naive, but a bit of a culture shock going to San Francisco. I remember very clearly. I didn’t have the clipper card, the bus path, basically when I had first moved to San Francisco. And so I had to take an Uber to the office and I get out of the Uber and they dropped me off out there, the office, which is on sixth and market, which if you’re familiar with San Francisco, like that’s like a block from the Tenderloin. It’s like the grittiest part of San Francisco. And this was my second day in San Francisco and they dropped me off on this corner and I was like, what the hell did I do?
Jodi Innerfield (07:52):
Where am I living? What is this place? So it was just a very different experience, both like the city of San Francisco. And then also I think west coast culture, New York and east coast, very direct very, to the point, tell it like it is, that is not the way most, uh, people outside of the east coast are. And so I think that made it particularly interesting, especially in a workplace culture to really learn how to adapt what I saw as a strength, which is just saying it is speaking your mind. So you can not in any sort of negative way, but just because transparency is a good thing. Yeah. That didn’t fly very well. So I really had to quickly adapt and adjust. And I think I also, I remember very clearly, like the transition to Michigan from New York was just so seamless for me. And I was like, oh, I can do this. I can live outside of the tri-state area. This is fine. And then going to San Francisco, I was like, wait, no, I realized how east coast and Arbor and university of Michigan really are. So I think, yeah. So I had some learning to do in terms of living and working in a different place. Again, I feel like only new Yorkers will truly understand that everyone else is gonna be like, this girl is naive anyway. No.
Al Dea (09:07):
So one thing, one thing, and no, I totally hear that. And I would be curious to know, because like to the point you made and Arbor, it definitely is different than New York city. For sure. And so there’s an adjustment there. What was it about the transition from Ann Arbor to San Francisco that was so different than maybe the transition from New York, 10 Arbor, because granted in Arbor and San Francisco are different. Like what, yeah. What was that? What was that like?
Jodi Innerfield (09:34):
I think that Ann Arbor, yeah, it’s not Manhattan. It’s not New York city in the sense that like a much smaller town, but this, there are a lot of similarities. It is very cosmopolitan. It is. There’s a lot of east coast transplants. I think. I don’t know what the statistics are about the number of students that move from the east coast to go for undergrad or grad school, but there’s a lot. And so I think also when you’re in school, you’re in a different, a bit of a different mindset, right? You’re in a learning mindset, you’re in an open minded, soak up all of the different things that you’re learning from different people. Whereas when I’m at work, I’m like, get done mode. I’m like, let’s hear, here’s my list of things that have to get done. Who do I talk to? Who do I work with?
Jodi Innerfield (10:22):
I have a very direct and driven personality. And I think the west coast, even though it is a bit more passive and laid back. And so I think it was more that my, I had to learn how to adapt my style and my working style to fit the people that I was now surrounded by. And then on top of that, San Francisco and California are just totally different places. I remember the first time it rained in San Francisco and like people weren’t decided to work from home because it was raining. I was like, what? Just because of the rain. So again, just a very different mindset and mentality. And again, anybody who hasn’t lived in San Francisco is different. If it’s not there, the city would really be in trouble.
Al Dea (11:19):
Oh, for sure. No for sure. No. And I grew up in upstate New York, so I, yeah, I totally, yeah, I totally get it. And one of the things though that I’m curious because I moved to San Francisco after I graduated from business school as well. And I’m not sure if this is just part of just growing up in, because we were about the same age when we graduated business school. But one of the things I find interesting is that one of the best kept secrets of your twenties is that it’s really hard to make friends. And so one of the things that strikes me as I think about your transition to Ann Arbor, and similarly for that matter, my transition to chapel hill is that number, their communities. But number two, you’re, you started with 400 peers and I started with 280 peers. But then when you make this move from business school to a new city and going back into the working world, I’m sure you had classmates who moved out to San Francisco, but you’re not like everyone’s going their separate ways.
Al Dea (12:12):
And so just this idea that when you’re going back, when you’re graduating from business school and moving on, it’s like continuing to build those relationships. Like you don’t have that built in, like it’s not there. And particularly it’s one thing if you’re returning maybe to where if you had gone back to New York, I presume, but even like maybe what your friends may have moved on. And I’m just curious of what that experience was like for you, just in terms of not only just cementing yourself in your life, post business school and work and things, but also just in terms of being in a new city, being in a place you didn’t lived before building friendships or maintaining friendships, what was that like? And what did that mean?
Jodi Innerfield (12:52):
You bring up a really good point, which is moving to Ann. Arbor was very different because of the community that you’re dropped into and moving to San Francisco was never going to be the same because I wasn’t there for school. So luckily one of the reasons I chose Michigan was because of just the alumni are all over. So I think we had 30 or 40 from my class alone, moved out to San Francisco. So immediately, yeah, you do have a built-in group of people, but at the same time, you’re also going your own way. Some of those people had lived there before. We’re going back to their old lives and routines. Others of us were there for the first time. And so maybe we’re creating more of a tight-knit community. It was also the first time I grew up in the New York area, went to college, here was here until I went to business school.
Jodi Innerfield (13:36):
And so moving to San Francisco was the first time I moved someplace. Semi-permanently right, without an end date in mind where I didn’t have family where I didn’t have anybody super close to me. And so that was definitely a big adjustment for me. And so I you’re right. Had to do a big mix of leveraged, really leaning on the friends that I had made in business school, reaching out to people from other parts of my life that maybe I wasn’t close with were in the same city. Now let’s hang out. So people from college or people from previous jobs and then attempting to make new friends, did things like join a temple, join different trends, talk to people during workout classes. I met somebody in an Uber pool who, this is a good story, how I met Al I was in an Uber pool and the car got cut off by someone.
Jodi Innerfield (14:29):
And the woman in the front seat was like, oh, that’s I? That was a real New York driver move. And I was like, oh, I’m a new Yorker. And so we started talking and she had this happy hour that she was setting up for ex new Yorkers. I went to that happy hour. I met somebody else. She invited me one weekend to Dolores park. And at this very random hangout in Dolores park, I met out, I think when you’re moving to a new city in your twenties or thirties, like you just have to say yes, and be open to very random experiences and, uh, talk to people that you might not normally talk to it. And it’s real easy to get into an Uber or Lyft and keep to yourself, but it does change the dynamic of making a move in later in life. You do have to be more open because otherwise, yeah, it can be a very lonely existence if you just try and go to work and come home every day.
Al Dea (15:22):
No, it, it can. And I think particularly if you were someone, I think maybe like you, or maybe like me who has always had a cohort or community of friends around and really values that in their life. And I was in a situation where, when I graduated from college, I lived in the same city where I went to college. And so I was very fortunate that a lot of my friends just naturally stuck around and I was in the fall. I was going back for tailgates. I was going back to campus in the fall to recruit at my undergrad. And the transition out of college to life was it was a transition, but I had built in friends and relationships. But I remember when I moved to San Francisco, after I graduated from business school, I didn’t necessarily have that same luxury. And it was something where I really had to work at it and to really build this new community of friends.
Al Dea (16:10):
And I was, yeah, go ahead. Why you chose San Francisco? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think to a couple of things, number one, like you, I think up until business school, I had lived my entire life in the Northeast and I knew there was more out there and I had traveled a little bit, but like I had never lived anywhere else. And so I, I did intentionally apply to business schools that were not in the Northeast from that resilience and then the same exact thing. Yeah. And I, and, and cause I just, I didn’t know where I wanted to end up, but what I told myself was that I don’t want to have any later on. I wish I would have lived here. I wish I could have explored there. I wish I would’ve known what that was like. And so that was part of why I chose to not only go to business school in the south, but also to move to the west coast.
Al Dea (16:55):
And I also very much knew going back into consulting that I was not going to be doing it forever. And if I were to go into my head, pick an industry that I might be interested in going into after it, tech was going to be that industry and that’s not a bad place to be. But the one thing that I would say is that prior to business school, one of the things I was on a project out in, in San Francisco for four months and I flew there like every week. And I remember maybe this was like 2012, like visiting my friends for a weekend in December. And there was like, it was like when Santa con was back when that was still a thing for us. But I remember getting my friend at the time with my best friend, I was staying with him.
Al Dea (17:36):
He’s okay. You got to try this new thing. It’s this app where it was people like pick you up in this car with a mustache and it was lifts, right? Like it was like, that was when Lyft was starting, just starting off. And I just remember just like going there that weekend and many of the other weekends and just being like, this seems like a really fun place to live with. A lot of people who are my age, who are seem very motivated by their careers and seemed really interesting to be around. And that was something that kind of also piqued my interest. I think like the interesting thing about it was all those things were true, but the nuance there that I didn’t really grasp until I lived there after business school was that all of those things are there, but you really have to put in the work if you want to build those relationships.
Al Dea (18:21):
And we have a lot of mutual friends now, but my, my friends and I always joke like more or less, like the only reason that we hang out is because, or at least to started hanging out was because I literally was just willing people to come together. But part of the reason why was because I tried so many different things when I first moved to San Francisco to try to make friends and it was looking back, I can probably say it was just part of the process. But in the moment I just kept thinking to myself, like, what is exactly like I’m normal.
Jodi Innerfield (18:51):
It’s really hard. And I think San Francisco is an interesting place to go after business school because there’s this weird mix of people who there are some people who grew up in the bay area. Not really if anything, with this guy. So they have connections there. And I think it’s probably very similar to the New York area where if you grew up outside of it, you go and you live in the city, but you still have to have lots of connections and it can be hard to break into it. And then you have a bunch of people who moved there from other places, the worm, when have they formed their tight knit group of people and then that it, and then it’s also, yeah, this is turning into a whole like San Francisco.
Al Dea (19:26):
I know. I know. But so on that. Yeah, yeah. On that notion though, I would love to leading the witness here, but I’d love to ask you more. You’ve been at the same company now for a couple of years, but making the move from a startup to big tech, could you talk a little bit more about how that happened and maybe start with that day in the park in Dolores park?
Jodi Innerfield (19:44):
Yeah, the dance part. Um, so I had been at a startup for about seven months and I just wasn’t feeling it anymore. I was at a startup before business school as well when I was in human resources and just a very, it, I, both companies when I joined were in a similar stage, similar size, but this was just a very different experience. I just wasn’t feeling it. Yeah. I remember Al talking to you. I’m really not. So into this, I’ve been looking at other things like Salesforce seems cool. Anyone knowing what Salesforce and I was like, yeah, this is Jason. Hi. And so I had done a lot of, again, when I was in business school, I had a lot of conversations with people in product marketing. It’s really funny. Cause I remember applying to the internship at Salesforce, but then resume going into a black hole.
Jodi Innerfield (20:23):
And at the time when I was looking at jobs in business school, I was like, it needs to be a product I’m really passionate about. And, or like an industry that I’m really like jazzed about something exciting. And so a CRM just didn’t sound like it was going to scratch that ditch. But after being in product marketing for a bit, I was like, you know what? I think I w what I missed, what I didn’t love about being at a startup was when there was something I didn’t how to do, I had to Google it. I had to go look it up. I had to go cause there, there was one other product marketer who was great, but there was only, so if there were things the company had ever done before, we had to just go figure it out. And I really wanted to learn from other people.
Jodi Innerfield (21:02):
I really wanted to be surrounded by people who were the best at what they did and who were setting the bar and raising the bar for other people. And what I do know, or I didn’t know about Salesforce at the time was that that was like, where mark. And that was like the place for marketers. And so the move to Salesforce and a big tech company for me was about a couple of things. It was about learning from other people and having other really smart marketers to, to set the, to raise the bar and to learn from it was also about building expertise in different parts of product marketing. So when you’re at a startup in any job at a startup, you do everything. You are a generalist, you have to wear all the hats. Whereas in a big company like Salesforce, you really can specialize, right?
Jodi Innerfield (21:52):
You can just become an expert in content, just become an expert in messaging, just become an expert in events. And so building that expertise makes you marketable in your career. And the third thing I was really looking for at the time was I didn’t want to leave again. Right? If you think about where I was at this point, I had interviewed for my internships. I had interviewed for my first job out of business school. And now I was interviewing again for something else. I didn’t want to have to do that again. I didn’t want to have to start from scratch just because I got bored or wanted to try something different. I really wanted to feel at a place where if I decided at some point that I wanted to try something else, but I can move internally that I could leverage my reputation to make my next move, as opposed to having to start from scratch. Those three things made a company like Salesforce really compelling, and I have been able to do all that. I have been able to learn from other smart people to really develop expertise in different areas. And then I’m on my third, really job at Salesforce in almost four years. And those changes have either been completely organic or a role opens. And I’m just like, Hey, I’m interested in. They’re like, okay, I can do it pretty unique
Al Dea (23:13):
That thank you for sharing that. And I would be curious as just as a followup to that, if you think back five years ago to when you graduated versus where you are now, did it play out how you thought it was gonna be, oh,
Jodi Innerfield (23:26):
I don’t even need to have you finish the sentence. The answer is no, not at all. But then again, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think when you’re in business school, you envision your quote unquote dream job or where you want to go. And what you fail to do is realize that nobody makes it there in one move. And it’s really hard to visualize what those steps are. It’s really hard, especially when you’re making a career change. And you’re trying to go into this career. That’s totally new to you with no idea what exactly the steps that are the skills are that are going to take to get you there. And I think, no, I don’t think there’s a single part of my life or my job right now that I could have foreseen happening, but I can tell you, I didn’t a year ago, I didn’t see myself in the role or that I am in right now or doing any of the things that I’m doing right now, which
Al Dea (24:25):
Some of them just didn’t exist. So
Jodi Innerfield (24:27):
That’s true. Um, but I think as a planner that is challenging for me to sit here and completely admit that nothing I planned for myself can’t happen the way I wanted it to yet here I am still trying to plan my career seems a little silly, but I think at least having ambition than having, I think I knew enough five years ago. I don’t want to say five years ago, let’s say four years ago, when I made that shift to Salesforce, I think I made the right. I came to Salesforce for the right reasons. God, that makes it wonderful bachelor, the right reason. But I wanted learn from smart people, develop expertise, have that flexibility to move entirely. Like those are a good reason to make a career choice. I think the reasons I made my career choice to go to that startup were where I was like, oh, it needs to be a company like a product I’m passionate about, or like an industry that I’m really like, no, I don’t think those were the right things and the right way to be thinking about my career. I think it was a much better thing for me personally, to think about what skills do I want to build and what type of environment do I want to be in. That’s a better way to think about career choices, then I’m passionate about theater. So let me go be at a theater technology company. If those exist, I want to find them. Yeah,
Al Dea (25:53):
For sure. So here’s the thing, like I agree with you, but I also know that there’s a world where if you didn’t go to that startup, you wouldn’t have gone to Dolores park. Right. Coffins
Jodi Innerfield (26:04):
For a reason. I also don’t think that I would have been as marketable as a marketer to get into Salesforce. I shouldn’t get that job right. There were jobs that could not get ran a business school. They didn’t have, I was unproven that being said, I think I could have thought differently about how to get that first job, just because I didn’t have to do all off-campus recruiting. But the reason I did that was because I wasn’t passionate about the companies that were coming to campus. No, I should’ve thought like what skills can I learn? I’ll be companies for really smart people. But again, I don’t regret it. All that being said, I don’t regret how I, to where I am. I just think that if someone’s listening to this and is looking for advice on how they should think about their first job out of business school, I would say think more about what skills you can learn and who you’re learning from then, is this the exact industry or role that you’re passionate about because you could get that. And that might
Al Dea (27:07):
Not be. And also too, I think the one thing that you did get from that first role that was invaluable was the title of PMM, which in, in and of itself, probably even if it hadn’t been Salesforce would have helped you land somewhere else, which could have been just as good as so you’re,
Jodi Innerfield (27:22):
You’re absolutely right. And I remember actually having con informational interview with the woman who hired me at Salesforce. This was before I had applied, like somebody else connected us. And I asked her, I was like, what advice do you have for someone who is trying to grow their career in product marketing? And she was like, get that title. You need that title at a company like Salesforce, like Google, whatever it is. Don’t think so much about the specifics of the role. So I, to this day, I still can’t tell if she told me that because she really believed it or because she knew she had a role. Like she wanted me to interview for that. I might not otherwise look at, which was this content product marketing role. Then I wasn’t that jazzed about it. I was like, I don’t know that I care so much about creating content, but I wanted the product marketing title. I knew that Salesforce was the type of place where I could build those skills, develop that expertise and then pivot. And I have,
Al Dea (28:18):
Yeah. Yeah. So let me preface this by saying that the reason why you got the job is because of your capabilities in your competency. But that said, the one thing I will say is this person, I remember also emailed me asking like, Hey, do you think she’s capable of doing the job? And I was like, absolutely. Like, she would, the reason I got the job, it had nothing to do with me. But the reason why I bring that up is because what’s so tricky sometimes particularly about these career changes or the job search in general is that if you think about what helped you land that job, right? Like part of it is some of the things you probably learned in business school in terms of making sure your resume was updated, making sure your LinkedIn was updated and making sure you’re actually looking at the job posting and that you’re aligning your skills and abilities to what the role is. But then there’s this whole set of things that happened that were so out of your control and that were so just the universe, just working in weird ways, right? Putting you at Dolores park, putting parole, Jason protrude next to us, connecting you guys, having the hiring manager, being someone who,
Jodi Innerfield (29:20):
And I wasn’t even connected to her completely separately from how you connect me to Jay, there was just too many things.
Al Dea (29:26):
Sure. And it’s part of the reason why I love this story so much. And obviously it helped your career as being one, but also because it’s, you can do all the right things. And there’s just so many other things that just of life that just happen. And sometimes they don’t break your way. But I do believe like to what you did in terms of putting yourself out there, I’m a big believer that yeah, like luck is not always evenly distributed, but the people who put themselves out there the most, as they say, as a kid say, shoot, their shot are the ones who did your origin throw away their shot. There we go. Marketers on fire right now put themselves in opportunities where sometimes like does happen.
Jodi Innerfield (30:06):
I think you’re absolutely right. I think that there was 100% elements of luck here, but that wouldn’t have mattered if I didn’t also do whatever I could. I had to still put in all of the things that I needed to do and all of the work that I needed to do on the resume, preparing for the interviews, having the conversations, but also like being a competent human being. That is just what pushed it over the edge connected the dots. But yeah, I forgot that she reached out to you. Yeah.
Al Dea (30:36):
Yeah. I know. It’s funny how the world works. You’ve been at Salesforce for a while now, but about a year ago, maybe a little bit over a year ago, you decided to leave the unfriendly realm of San Francisco and move back to the east coast. I’m just having half joking, but you back to the east coast, obviously your family’s, there would just love to know just in general, just how did you think about that? Like how do you think about that within the context of your life and career, even in terms of making that move back to the east coast? Yeah.
Jodi Innerfield (31:03):
I will comment on all of this by saying all these decisions were made pre pandemic. So it was a very different thought process. And I think I would have made today. I was, when I moved out to San Francisco, I told myself I’d probably be there for two to three years. I never thought as permanent. I thought as a thing I wanted to try, but ended up being there for about three and a half years, really staying longer because I loved my team. I loved the people I was working with and going into the office on a day-to-day basis. And I did think it would not negatively impact my career to leave headquarters and to leave San Francisco. So I seriously considered it for a year. I think my last year in San Francisco, 2019, I knew the whole year that I wouldn’t stay. And a lot of that was for personal reasons, for family reasons, but I felt like I, I couldn’t quite pull the trigger yet, but I knew like this is my last time, my last year.
Jodi Innerfield (31:51):
Um, yeah, I was just at that point prepared to weigh any consequences that it might’ve had for my professional life were worth it for me to be back closer to family and closer to home. And now all that being said, like I was keeping my same job, like nothing. Like I had conversations with my manager, with my leadership, like nothing was changing about my role. I was just concerned that I wouldn’t be thought of for different positions or wouldn’t be thought of for opportunities because I wasn’t going to be where the rest of leadership was or where the team was. And so I moved, but again, that was a worthwhile decision for me personally, because I wanted to prioritize my personal life. I moved back January 30th, 20, 20. I only made it into the, for about three weeks in New York before everything shut down. And then it really didn’t matter where I was.
Jodi Innerfield (32:44):
So I think it’s actually really ended up pumping. Good. My timing worked out personally for me. And now I think the dynamics are very different. It doesn’t quite matter where you are on now. It turns out my leadership is east coast based because things change. So I think everybody needs to weigh their options according to what matters to them. I don’t think it’s a one size fits all approach to how to make these types of decisions. But at the end of the day, I knew for me, I needed to prioritize my personal life and whatever hat like I was okay with whatever that meant for my career. And I think I’m just at the point in my career where I’m like, you know what, I’ve done things I want to do that I needed to do so that if it gets negatively impacted by this decision, that’s okay. I’ll deal with it. I’ll handle it. And yeah, I think even being in New York during a pandemic, I’m so happy to be here. I’m so grateful to be home and to be near family that like it was 100% the right decision. I’m valid. I’m grateful for my time in San Cisco. Like I don’t think I would have ended up at Salesforce had I had that experience with Cisco, but yeah, it was a big decision that ended up being not so big when that working remotely ended up equalizing everything for everybody. For
Al Dea (34:02):
Sure. And, but what I think to me that is, is striking about that is you obviously couldn’t have predicted what was going to happen with the pandemic, but at the end of the day, it was really mostly about just figuring out what were the most important things to you and how do you make the best decision that, that aligns to that. And I think fortunately is to the point you made, like there, it looks like there’s going to start to be a little bit of a shift in terms of how companies think about things like performance management and promotions, particularly with large distributed or large organizations or multinational organizations. But I think probably, I assume probably when you were thinking about this a year ago, that was something that was top of mind to the point you made in terms of a traditionally, if you’re not in sales, a lot of the action hap or customer success or any customer facing kind of role, a lot of the action and a lot of the projects and a lot of the priorities and a lot of the promotions going back to Hamilton, the room where it happens and that’s, and that’s headquarters.
Al Dea (35:01):
And so there’s, that’s there, but, and I think that’s changing, but it will still take some time, but there’s also a decision point that you also had to think about and make in terms of acknowledging that just because you chose to move to New York didn’t mean that you weren’t going to get promoted. It’s not mutually exclusive in that regard, but there was a decision that you had to make in terms of feeling comfortable, that knowing what you know about how these things are made, that’s something that you’re okay with and that’s something you’re comfortable with. And that there, as a result of that, you will get a whole slew of other things, but that was a trade-off that
Jodi Innerfield (35:31):
You were willing to. And it’s about understanding what your comfort level is with those things. And I think I, yeah, as I mentioned, it took me about a year and it was like, it took me a year of really seriously considering it to feel really, again, going back to just this gut feeling. And when I finally made the decision that I was ready to move, it happened within a month. So with a year of thinking about it, and then literally everything happened in exactly a month. And again, it was a very worthwhile decision in the end, but it was not without a lot of thought and consideration and some heartburn going back and forth, but it was absolutely the right decision for me.
Al Dea (36:14):
And not only that, but you also did get promoted.
Jodi Innerfield (36:16):
Yeah. But that was, I think there was just, but here’s the thing, like, so many things changed in this last year. Like, I, I can, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s cause and effect on anything
Al Dea (36:31):
And that’s, what’s interesting about it and listen, like I have nothing against getting promoted. I think it’s great. And I will should, if that’s what they want, they should absolutely do that. But I think what I am part of the reason why I like talking with you about this is that you focus on the things that you wanted and thought were important and optimized for that. And guess what, as a result of that, like it worked out and oh, by the way, like you happen to get promoted,
Jodi Innerfield (36:54):
You bring up a good point. I remember talking to somebody on my team who wasn’t on in San Francisco, he was on the east coast. And I was like, Hey, I’m thinking of making this choice. He was like, you absolutely have to do it because when you are happy in the other parts of your life, like the rest of whatever else happens as a matter, right. Like things will fall into place or will happen at work. And you won’t care as much because you’re happy where you are. And it was really what I needed to hear to know. Yeah. Like I can prioritize my personal life and what matters to me. And I think that’s a really difficult thing to reconcile with when you are really career driven. Because I made the decision to move to San Francisco for my career. I made the decision to go to business school for my career. And then to all of a sudden make these decisions that could potentially negatively impact your career. It’s an interesting turning point to get to where you’re like, yeah, I no longer want to prioritize those things because that’s not what makes me happy anymore. But it’s, I think it’s really important to give yourself the space, to think about that and to recognize that and to change those things, to change for me. And that’s completely okay. Yeah,
Al Dea (38:01):
No we did. But the reason why I love talking about it is because, and I know you have these conversations too, with your friends, but there’s another one of our mutual friends who we talked about earlier, Jason who’s I think so highly of him, he’s three levels above me and, and we graduated the same year and there are definitely times, and I say this in the nicest way. I’m like, I’m three, like layers shittier than what Jason is. Am I behind? Okay, what
Jodi Innerfield (38:24):
Choices did he make in his life? That’s what he’s prioritizing, right?
Al Dea (38:30):
No, exactly. And he does like deserves that title, if not even more, because he’s worked hard for it and has delivered in so many different ways. But what, and that’s one example of it, but I know I have so many of these conversations with other people out there where they’re like, am I behind am? And yeah, I
Jodi Innerfield (38:46):
Think about, it’s really easy to think ahead behind because we’re so used to you go to school for 1248, however many years with the same people in the same grade. And you’re like, you do you progress from one grade to the next, right? And then you get let out into a career and it’s like letting the horses out of the gate and they just run and you it’s, and it feels normal to continue to compare yourself to the people that were in your grade. But the reality is that everybody is making such different choices that take them. There’s no, it’s no longer a straight path, right. It is curved. It is a jungle gym. It is a playground. And some people decide to go on the monkey bars and some people decide to go on the swing set. And that doesn’t mean one is a better decision than the third, but it, I’m not saying I don’t also compare myself to other people who are my age or by year, but I think it’s helpful to take a step back and think, am I happy with the decisions that I made to get me to where I am?
Jodi Innerfield (39:59):
And I can’t think about, because I don’t know that I would be happy with making the same decision that somebody else made to get them where they are. Yeah,
Al Dea (40:07):
For sure. Uh, yeah. You can’t optimize for someone else’s life. Yeah.
Jodi Innerfield (40:11):
That was a very succinct way to say the whole monkey bar analogy.
Al Dea (40:15):
Well, I, I still like the monkey bar analogy. It brought back good memories of the recess and when I was in middle school. So I, it’s not all for not we’ve danced around this, but I would love to just ask you straight up now, how do you think about just like career development in general now? What’s what is your process or also just how has that as we talked about it. So it sounds like it’s evolved a little bit, but just, what are your thoughts on it right now?
Jodi Innerfield (40:36):
Um, how do I think about career development? I think I do still think about it as in terms of what skills do I want to build. And instead of, I think I used to think of that as, what do I need to do to get to the next level, to your point. I was very much like I want to get promoted what I need to do. And then I think since moving back and making that conscious decision to not prioritize that, instead the way I think about career development is what skills do I need to build to do whatever it is that I want to do next? I think the other thing that happens for me personally, is thinking more about the soft skills and the hard skills. I think I’ve been really fortunate now to quote unquote, make the rounds and marketing to have tried a little bit of everything.
Jodi Innerfield (41:20):
I still haven’t done everything. So I haven’t done everything wonderfully by any stretch of the United nations, but I think I’ve scratched the surface of a number of different areas. And now when I think about the areas that I’m like really focusing on and want to work on, they tend to be more of the soft skills, not the work that you do, but how you make people feel is the way one person cut it. And I’m now managing a team. And so that’s a totally different area of my own career development that I’m trying to uncover and work on continually because it’s really fricking it’s really hard. But I think about it for my team too. I want them to build the skills that they need, for what, whatever skills they want, whatever they want to go and do not check the boxes on what I need them to do to be in their exact existing role, because it’s more important to me that they have the careers that they want, whether that’s on my team, outside my team or outside the company than it is for them to just be checking the boxes on the things that I need them to do today.
Jodi Innerfield (42:26):
If that’s not fulfilling, it wouldn’t be fulfilling for me. So I can’t imagine that’s fulfilling for somebody else. Yeah.
Al Dea (42:33):
I would be curious to know, what do you think about, or how do you define your like success now? What is, what does that look like for you? Or how do you evaluate yourself
Jodi Innerfield (42:44):
On that? Oh, wow. I think for me, success is what I’m just proud of the work that I’ve done or proud of whatever it is that’s just happened. So whether that’s a project that’s completed or a conversation that I’ve had, that was difficult, that went really well. Or someone on my team getting promoted, not that I want to take away from, they did the work, but like, I’m like, oh, like I’m really proud of that outcome. I’m really proud of how that went and how I think that’s a very different way of measuring success than my go getter. MBA self would have said five years ago, grab him coming out of business school success. I think I would have told you would be getting a high paying job, getting promoted quickly, becoming a bleeder. So I think success to me right now is much more about, am I feeling fulfilled then am I checking a box? Because I think I’ve seen myself check the boxes and then be like, now what, whereas when I have that feeling of fulfillment or pride in something that I’ve done or somebody else in my team has done that I’d helped them get to do that actually is what I would fill out my gratitude journal at the end of the night. That’s what I’m putting in the book and the post, but like something more superficial. Yeah.
Al Dea (44:06):
Yeah, no, I like that. And this has been a wonderful conversation and I really enjoy it. And just to maybe wrap up here, Jodi, you’ve had lots of career conversations and coached a lot of folks in career conversations meant a lot of different capacities. I would love to know what advice do you have for MBA graduates or soon to be MBA graduates who are about to reenter the workforce and many will be changing careers or entering a new field or industry or function. What kind of advice would you give to them as they start their post MBA careers around just general? Just like career
Jodi Innerfield (44:44):
Don’t graduate? No, but if you have to graduate, my advice for people just graduating from their MBA and embarking on their career is to really think more holistically about what is fulfilling for you personally, as opposed to what looks good on your LinkedIn profile or on your resume, because you’ll fill out that resume and your LinkedIn profile without, without a problem. But is that really going to help me go to sleep at night with a smile on your face and sleep soundly because of that. And so I think one way, one tangible thing to think about, or way to approach that is to think about the skills that you want to build and the things that you want to learn and approach your career that way as opposed to approaching your career in terms of what title do I want, or what hot shot company name do I want on my resume? Think about what you genuinely want to learn and understand, and you’ll naturally grow and get where you want to get that way. But I think it’s a bit more fulfilling than the, you know, aim for the shoot for the title approach, which I’ve done. So I just say this from experience, yeah, sure.
Al Dea (46:12):
Jodi interview class of 2016, Ross. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me today and talking about post MBA life. Thanks for having the podcast.